00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm your host, Mark kenyans episode number two fifty two, and today in the show, I'm joined by Josh Further Hilliard and my father to discuss the history of our family deer camp and some of our favorite stories from along the way. All right, we are back in the log cabin with the wood burning stove and the propane lights, and almost exactly one year or go, we're here, me and Further talking about deer camp. And that was a good chat, right, Josh, it was a good chat. It was a good chat, but it was it was an incomplete chat because it was it was just you and me, and we're missing a very important part of any deer camp. Do you know what that is? Further, I think I've got a pretty good idea. Yeah, it's the senior citizen regroup. It's the senior member of the camp. We do have a senior member of the camp, one of the senior members of our camp. We don't have them all here today, but we do have special guest, first time appearance on the podcast many time appearance in My Life David Kenyon, my dad. Welcome to the show. Dad, Thanks Mark, glad to be here. And I gotta say, um, this is interesting, right. I haven't had the father's son dynamic on the show yet, So I just gotta tell you. You can't go you can't get too much into like proud dad mode like you do sometimes. What am I going to talk about, Yetta, try to stay unbiased, um, otherwise people are going to turn this off real quick. I'm sure you can throw a few things in there that will help. Yeah, yeah, you can. You can share the other side of things. UM. But no, I'm really excited because you know, so much of what makes this place special where we're at right now is the history. And that is something that I want to talk about today because last time, when we talk Deer Camp, me and further, we're kind of just talking about the recent history, talking about our hunts up here just recently, what was going on. Um. But there's so much about this place that steeped in the past and one of my favorite things growing up. And I don't know if you remember this, if it's annoyed you at all, it probably annoyed some people. UM, but I just remember every time we were driving up to camp, whoever I was sitting with in the backseat. Sometimes it's Terry, sometimes it was maybe you or Uncle Steve or Uncle Bill or whoever might be. I was always asking him to tell stories, like tell me about the first time you got a dear, tell me about this one time up at camp, or tell me about this year what happened this time. I just loved all the stories at the old days, um, and I still love the stories the old days. So I'm hoping you can share some of those stories of the old days. Um. So is that something you're up for it? Yeah? Um, well good. We're sitting here, we're drinking cold beverages. We got the fire going. We just had um my wife's famous venice and chili, and Josh made some great dear heart, so we are borderline food coma. Yeah, So hopefully we can stay awake for this one, um, because I think it's it's it's always fun to talk about this stuff. But I guess before we get into those good old stories, we should at least talk about what's happened here so far. Um. You know, it was kind of a quick trip up here to camp kind of two Jewish days too quick days. Um and dad, you and me, we have not seen it a deer at all. Right, Um, so we don't have a whole lot to share. But first you've been, you've been kind of the star of the show. Yeah, I've seen ten deer you guys, zero which is pretty good for up here. He walk us through your runs. What's happened so far? Yeah, well I got up here, what a night A night before you guys. Um, I got up Sunday night and uh not in time to hunt. But my first hunt was Monday morning, and um, I'm trying to remember what all even happened that morning. I guess I saw. I saw four deer that morning. I saw like a little four corn, a spike, a button buck, and a dough. Um throughout the morning, just kind of slow, slow morning, even though seeing those deers all kind of um in a short time period where they came through, Um, that was fun. I sat, I sat where Mark usually sits. I've snaked his spot since he wasn't here yet. He couldn't say no, so he didn't set one of the food plots that he usually sits, so that was fun to sit somewhere. I hadn't I hadn't said. And interestingly, the one time I let you hunt there, you hunt there, and then all the subsequent hunts has been dirt. I haven't seen a single deer, So you've you found some way to really disturb the walk. I walked through the whole food plot. I didn't wash my clothes. I could dump in the middle of the field exactly. You turned that star whole real quick for you. No, I didn't do any of that. I snuck in there and snuck out. Um. But um, yes, that was That was a good first morning. Um. I mean, we just don't We don't see a ton of deer up here. So seeing four and once it is pretty good and a good day. Two antlerd bucks is is a in one set is a good day. Um. It's worth pointing out that from the time I can remember coming hunting up here, so if I have my memory serves right, probably from the time I was like six or seven is when I can start remembering hunts. You know that I was up here dead right. I was up here at six seven, eight years. You were up here much earlier than year. But that I can remember, well, I can't tell you what you can remember. I remember about three years old at the bottom of the block. Yes, yes, okay, So so I can remember though around like seven or eight years old, because I remember I was seven at ninety five, I remember that was the year that GP killed a big one and Terry kills a big one. So I remember that year, and I remember the year before that, which is and Steve killed that night's eight point So maybe six years old is when I can remember those hunts. So from six all the way until um until like I was like eighteen or nineteen, so let's let's call it that whole time period, um, ten twelve years or whatever. Um. I can remember seeing one, two, two, I think two antler bucks. All those years of you and me hunting together. I think we only got two or three antlered bucks in a ten or twelve year period. So it doesn't totally shocked man. It was probably the two that you and I saw when you wanted to pull the gun away and shoot him yourself. That was That was one of the stories, and we'll tell that one. We'll get to that story soon. Um. But yeah, I mean so in general, we have not seen the last couple of years have been a little bit better. Um, so this trip being indicative of that. Even though you and me dead didn't see anything, Josh, you saw a lot of bucks relative too. But you know, it wasn't always that way. So back when Grandpa and I and Uncle Steve and the rest of us came up here, back in the late sixties and seventies and eighties, Um, there were a lot of deer up here, I thought. So the uh, the the area that we used to hunt in a mile or so from where our camp is now for your out what we call the oil road. UM. At that time, it was just a two track. And then the oil well companies came in. They widened the road, they did a lot of clear cutting, they put in the oil wells themselves. Suddenly, over the course of the next two or three years, we had all this undergrowth that grew up in the deer. And then a number of people came in from the outside, from the oil, from the drilling companies and hunted. So now we had a lot of pressure than we never had before. And there were probably five years, maybe ten years where we were seeing lats of deer and it was it was pretty cool. It was pretty fun. And then, um then for whatever reason in the late nineties and early two thousands, things slowed down again. Yeah yeah, um so I want to get back to all that. But I guess let's look finish your story, Josh, and I want to jump back to where you were just at their dead uh, because yeah, so in the past they had been better, and then there was a basically once I showed up, things started going down to the two. Once I started coming, things really slowed down. And then maybe we've been on a little bit enough to take the last couple of years. Um So, Josh, you saw a little Bucks. Yeah, a couple of little Bucks that morning, Monday morning, Monday afternoon, you guys got here. Um when I see I saw five doze Monday afternoon, and it felt like it was gonna be a really good night for me to I was thinking, to me, great, and then I start hearing all this blowing behind me a couple hundred yards away. Just yeah, for about thirty things turned into a bit of a cluster. Yeah. They never they never got down wind to me. I don't think they smelled me. But I was sitting on the ground, this this spot, it's not really conducive for a tree stand or saddle sitting on a pipeline trying to look down this pipeline. It's on the edge of this big hemlock stand. Hemlocks are like an evergreen tree, right, so they got a lot of a lot of branches, a lot of low hanging branches hanging over this pipeline, and so really are the best bet is to sit in the ground there for for visibility and shooting lanes, and then you can kind of see into the hemlocks too, because there's there's zero understory in there because it's there's no sunlight in the floor in there. Um. So sitting on the ground and that lead dough, she she knew something was up. She never smelled me, but I think she she knew something wasn't right. Um, And she started blowing, and then one of the other doughs started blowing. They didn't really run off, They just kind of bounced off to about forty yards and just looking at me, and you know, bobbing their heads and stomping their feet and blowing. And that one on the worst when they just sit there and every time they make that noise, like a little part of my heart dies, and I think to myself, just leave, just if you're soap set, just leave. I was seriously, I was seriously ready to just stand up and start waving my arms just to get him to run away, because I mean it was just it was getting ridiculous. Um, I wonder about that if sometimes that might be the better way to go about it, right, just get him out of here, Yeah, just go. And um, so they just kind of hung around from it. I don't know, ten minutes maybe, Yeah, it was like thirty Yeah, I mean you could hear him the whole time, you, um, because we weren't. We were sitting maybe a couple. Um. Yeah, it was just it just turned into a cluster and I ended up seeing one more dough I don't know, maybe twenty minutes before shooting light was over. And um that was that was that. Um but that was I mean seeing five dolls in a night again, I mean, that's that's a good night. Um. So, I mean that was a good day. I saw she's nine deer just in that one day. And then um, we pulled trail cameras, pulled trail cameras. We looked at some pictures last night, and fortunately two of the three cameras didn't take pictures. I don't know. I don't know what happened. If if I it appears that the cards were not formatted so that the cards were full keeping, because when you look at the pictures, it's a bunch of old pictures of mine, So it would seem that I put the card and there, turned it on and didn't reform at the cards. But I just cannot see myself doing it. It's I do this so many times, and that's like, I don't even turn on the camera without first format. It's it's just it's as much of a process as it is to pull on your pants for going on the bathroom. Um, hey man, it happens. Interesting analogy. I've made that mistake. I'm sure I can good dump for me. And it's been going back and forth like this the whole time. Yeah, uh yeah, I don't know what happened, but something happened which kept our two best cameras. There are two best spots that traditionally the past few years we've been getting good bucks on camera. Those didn't take any pictures from mid October through mid November, which is that the one time period during the year we usually get good bucks. So I was kind of devastated last night. I was really upset about it. There's a there's a couple of decent bucks on on the one camera that we had, but a lot of critters, just you know, bears, I mean dozens dozens of bears, a couple of coyotes, a couple of bob cats, um, and some bucks, mostly young bucks. There was one buck maybe that could have been three year old. A couple of small eight pointers, a little six that kind of stuff that are maybe one or two year old. Um. It was good to see bucks. I mean it's you know, to the earlier point in the past, we didn't see any antler bucks, so it's nice to know there are antler bucks running around. Um. And I gotta believe if we had the food plot cameras running bets, you at least one nice buck with a show up. Well, there was one nice buck on that one camera, like a you know, maybe a three year old tight kind of tight and tall look at a pointer. Um. So that was good to see, I guess. And then that takes us to this morning, right, yeah, and this morning I think I saw that tall and tight eight pointer that was on the trail cameras. I saw one deer this morning, and it was the first deer that has made me pick up my gun since I've been coming up here for what seven years? This is seven I think this is a seven seven something like that. And as the first time I picked up my gun and I was looking through my scope and ready to pull the trigger. Um, it's not happening. Well, I'm sitting and I was sitting in the same spot us at the day before that, the evening before, and because it works so well with those doughs, Yeah, it worked worked really well those Yeah. I was just I was just hoping that they wouldn't come back through there. They're they're just spooked and wouldn't come back through. And it was a slow morning, there's really nothing going on. And then jeez, what was that maybe nine fifteen is nine thirty maybe, Yeah, sometime around then, I just caught a flash of something working through the hemlocks and um, moving quick. It's just is one of those like moments where you're like, oh, that's a buck, like you know, it's not a dough It was is cruising. It was just walking like a buck. Um are kind of cruising like a buck. And I got my binoculars up and as you was going through the hemlocks and all the the trees everything, I could just make out his antlers, like, oh, that's a nice that's pretty nice. That's a nice book. And um, he got to the edge, he got to the edge of the hemlocks. I didn't have a shot yet. I needed him to take a couple of steps out into this pipeline, and instead of doing that, he had stopped at the edge of the hemlocks. And then he started working due west of me, right straight away from me, right down this pipeline, and uh just walked walked away. Tried grunting at him a couple of times, and he did not care. He just zanas was on a mission or something. This was a buck that you were like, definitely shoes, Yeah, yeah, especially for up here. I was like that, that's a shooter for up here. You know, I thought he was probably judgment judging his body coming through the woods, Like he looked like he's probably three and a half. Um looked like he had a had some some good antlers on him. Um, I thought, for sure, he's a shooter for up here. So pretty excited he would have been. You know, we're looking at a wall of racks here, um, and the top rows is all the bigger racks that have been shot up here. And he definitely would have been a top row bucke, that's for sure. Yeah. I feel like, even though our top row is not terribly impressive across the board, there are some, um, but if you get a shot at something that would be a top row buck these days, it's it's hard not to pull trigger on that. Yeah, just an editorial comment there. This used to be that top row used to be full of big racks, bigger racks than what we're there. Um. Back in the late nineties, we had a break in and they took many of our bigger racks. So now we're kind of kind of refilling it. Yeah. Um, well we almost had one to put up there today. That would have been nice. Yeah. So they walked away and that was it. And that was that basically into the morning. And I was in your your guys boat tonight. I didn't see a deer this afternoon, So yeah, no no such luck for us, I see I did I did? I remember thinking yesterday and this morning I hadn't seen any here, but I did see two of the does that spooked from you. They came running sort of by me, and I saw him back behind me. But otherwise nothing. I did have a fresh set of bear tracks that came past me this morning. They had not been there in the evening before. And then we end up getting pictures of him. I think we went and checked the camera again today because you thought that buck maybe walked past it. Yeah, pulled that card tonight because I thought that buck he did walk. I know he did. I know he probably did. Um, But I don't know what happened to that camera because now it's like interesting batteries are did? I know I probably did well he was he was heading in that direction unless he unless he cut in um to the swamp on the other side of the clear cut before he passed that camera. Um. But but my guess as he was working down the edge of that swamp, you know. So we got the picture, didn't get the picture of the buck because the batteries, but got the little bear on camera. It's kind of cool. Lots and lots of bears, a lot of bears. And then well I talked about us in podcast Aret, I didn't talk about with you guys. But I did see that bear last time I was up here, a bear, which is really cool to see. Um, how would you have reacted, Dad, if you were sitting out here in a bear came walking up on the Uh. Probably can't say what I would do. I feel like you're a little bit more on edge about the bears than I am. Yeah, yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah yeah. I think you know I won't go in the woods without a weapon. Um. You know, I know that most of the time, you know, especially here, the black bear are probably more afraid of us than where them. But do I really want to take that chance and be the one time when you know I have a piste off bear. I get that, I get that. Um. But yeah, we've certainly have seen a lot more bear evidence and bear themselves, and we've had some sightings. Our neighbor next to us a couple of years got a picture of a bear that he claimed was and that DNR apparently confirmed it was a seven eight hundred pound bear. I mean, you know, very large black bear. Um. I'm pretty sure that can't be right in retrospect, because I remember seeing numbers of like world record bears. But but all that to say, is we're just gonna get an email from someone's gonna say there's no way those it was a big dear yea. Um, but yeah we did see Also speaking of big bears though, the sixth largest black bear killed in the state or something that was recently killed not too far from here, so certainly, um, history would indicate some big bears around here for mission at least. Yeah, and we've had a number of cougar sightings as well, and you know animals that have been killed by by them as well. So yeah, we've got a lot of wildlife. There are some critters. So that's been our deer camp as far as deer sightings, animal sightings. Josh, you let us down, good thing I'm here. Well, no, it's almost worse when it's right that close, so close, and then you just couldn't make it happen. It's like your teasing. Thus that's the story of my my season. Close. But no, cigar, do you have like three different We won't get too much into it now, but I've had three different like shooter bucks just not offering your shot. Can you give us like the thirty second cliff notes, h thirty second cliff notes? Um A couple of days before a gun season, last time hunting one of the properties I have access to in Jackson. Um. Just a really nice buck was about seventy yards out and coming in, and he had another trail and went went a different direction. And I was debating on the tree stand where I was sitting in a tree stand about or setting a stand about thirty or forty yards further towards where he came from. And if I would have set to stand there, I probably would have killed him. That night, got a text message from the other guy that hunts that property on opening day guns season, he killed that buck, really nice eight pointer. That was a bummer. UM happy for him? Um, opening day a guns HEAs really yeah, why not? I mean, I'm not gonna I don't mean that's that's the it's a it's a buck that I had no history with. You know, it's you know, it's a it's a property that of access with with Corey and um, you know, I have no history with that buck. And hey, someone someone shoots a good deer. I'm happy for him. I don't get too worked up about that kind of stuff. Um. Opening day I was hunting with Dustin and uh, nice like a nice ten point came just sprinting out into the into this bean field, and he's coming out right across and I looked at the holy color a nice buck out and where this thing come from? And he was probably like a hunter and yards out and I grabbed my gun. I was getting ready, and I think what happens is he caught Dustin's scent and then he stopped on a dime and right back the way he came from. And so that that could have happened if you would have gaven me another I don't know, fifteen seconds to get settled in on him, probably would have had a shot at him. I probably blame Dustin, I should, but no, no, and then tonight, I mean this morning. So I mean that's three opportunities that at good Michigan deer that just wasn't quite able. You could even add that North Dakota close call yet that came out just a little bit of arrange that seems just like a wholenother season. Yes see a little long time ago now, but yes, I mean she's four different, four different opportunities this year that just haven't been quite right. So that is yep, deer hunt, deer hunting good good news is still got I don't know, a little over a month left and maybe something will maybe something will come together for me. So you never. So that's our that's our sad story, I guess, the the slow couple of days and the tragedy of Josh Hilliard's two thousand eighteen deer hunting season. But the good news is that we are enjoying one of the best parts of the deer hunting season right now, which is deer camp. And even without seeing many deer, it's still one of the absolute best times of the year, isn't it. Sure as sure as I mean, dad, My dad is not a big drinker, but he's having a beer for lunch. He's having a beer podcast. Sorry, he had one o' duels and uh. And one of my favorite things we always do is we always stop at the grocery store in the way up here, right and it is the only guilt free grocery shopping trip of the year where anything that looks good you just throw it in there, no questions asked. So we've just been hammering food. Um, Like I said, we had chili, and we had the deer heart, and we had how many cookies and cheetos and oh yeah, a diet food, yes, exactly, sugar free stuff. So so that's whe're at today. But we do we gotta go back to what you're talking about. Dad, Go take us back to the beginning. You don't need to talk about, you know, any specifics as far as location stuff, right, Um, But but walk us through what's the story of Um, you know how we ended up here, right, You started hunting with your dad, your brother, and you started hunting with your dad a long time ago. Um, where did that start? And then how did you guys eventually get to this point? You know? We uh, we used to hunt further down state, um, in an area that you know, my dad knew about because of some friends and and his brother that had hunted there for a long time. And um, you know we'd go there every year. And this is back when I was six, seven, eight years old, and uh, you know we'd go there and had a Hunting was so different back then, right, you didn't have tree stands, he didn't do all the things we do today. We'd basically find a tree, literally, find a big tree. I'd sat on one side, he'd sat on the other, and you know, the funniest things. We still saw a lot of deer, and we killed a lot of deer. You know, I mean, sometimes I wonder what's really changed. But at that time, we hunted, uh public land, and in that part of the state, it was really heavily hunted. There was a large deer population, so we saw a lot of deer, but she saw almost as many hunters, and you know, it was just kind of it just you know, it got a little old after a while. So one point, I think my uncle um had come up in this part of the state and had been hunting up here and told my dad about it and told me about this, you know, big chunk of public land and um so and it wasn't real heavily hunted and real thick. And so back in the late sixties, we started coming up here instead of going to the other place, and uh almost immediately started getting deer. And you know, we we've never had you know, we're now talking about Boone crock in one fifties or anything like that, but still big deer from Michigan and a lot of deer, and um, you know, this time, I'm eight years old, ten years old, and uh, my brother who's eleven months younger than. We would always compete for who's going to go up with dad to go hunting, you know. Um, and so my dad would take one of us up one weekend and then the other up the following weekend and always had a great time. And back in those days, we were in an old pop up trailer. You know, night's like tonight when it's you know, twenty five degrees or twenty degrees and you'll be sleeping in a pop up trailer with just a little caressing heater to keep it warm, and we're little kids, and we're just freezing our butts off. You know, remember in those kind of scenarios in the moment, did you enjoy it? Where was the situation? In the moment you and Steve were just like, this is horrible. We're freezing a little you know, it's both. To be perfectly honest, there there were a lot because we also had a little tent set up, a nice fishing shanny set up behind the trailer, which is where we did our dude, you know, and uh that's where they did the dude continue. So you know, I mean an eight year old kid having to winder out there in the middle of the night, and of course it had to be away from the trailer. Wasn't right next the trailers was ways away, and um, that wasn't so great. Um, but in in this little carrossing heat didn't really keep that that canvas you know, tent or the pop up that we eventually had, very warm at all. So we froze our butts off all the time. But you know, there was nothing like going in the woods and sitting down and what we called the potholes, which we were these you know, uh, hardwood stand with really kind of rolling little bumpy hills and stuff that you said, and that would ran along the swamp and you see, you know, and Grandpa would like, I said, be on one side, and I'd be on the other, and you know, I'm freezing my butts off, and you know he wrap us up and and what you know. That's the other thing. Clothing has come so far. All we had back then was you know, a flannel shirt and a red sweatshirt and you know, my mom would would hand knit scarfs and hats and gloves for us and that sort of thing, and those were great, but they did do a whole lot to keep you a warm. I mean you froze every once in a while, you know. And my dad was my dad was really hardcore. So we'd get up in the morning, you know, three o'clock in the morning. We'd have our two three cups of coffee, you would, uh yeah, oh yeah, yeah, oh yeah. My dad fed me coffee is pretty early. Uncle Steve not so much, but I like it. And uh, and we'd be out in the woods, you know, or before it got light, and uh we'd find our you know spot by the one of the trees and um, and Grandpa also build his own blinds. We'd build ground blinds and uh, you know, we'd be out there early in the morning. And Grandpa, you know, I mean good good hunting technique. Keep you know, you'd had to be really quiet, and you had to be really still, and you always had to be looking. And he'd always encourage us and said, Dave, Dave, look at that. Look do you see that there? And you know there'd be something moving through the woods. And so, you know, going back to your question, mark, Um, there were lots of things about hunting for an eight year old that that you know, weren't all that much fun. Um, you know, but it's kind of like that old adage of if I can remember it, you know, um, incredible periods of boredom accentuated by moments of glory and delight. That's kind of the we deer hunting was for me. But but you know, there's some of the best memories of my life and being there with Grandpa and then just like us, we're telling stories all night, we're playing cars. We always you know, at the end of the day, we'd usually go in, um, if we've made dinner at camp, we would, but sometimes we go into town and have a burger or something, come back to camp and play poker, you know. And so our eight ten year old boys and grandpa, you know, we played like everybody else, and he teach us the rules of the game. We had a few other adults there with you two. Yeah, we typically have four or five of us typically be there. Yeah, and uh, and you know, we just have great stories, always talking about stories of the camp and stories from people's past and stories from the hunt. And you know, I mean, like you said, Mark, I think you know, the um ent of of the joy of being here is is the camaraderie and and where we are in this beautiful cabin and and being in God's creation and outdoors, you know, and UM being able to relate that and share that with each other, that that's what it's all about, and and doing that, I think in the context of really trying to um find just that right opportunity to kill the big deer. And Uh, but you know Grandpa was also and taught me, and I think we taught you that. You know, there's a there's a tension and a real respect that we have to have for for our prey and for the deer that we hunt, and for you know, nature that we're part of. And as much as we we want to get that big deer and and put venison on the table, there's also you know, we love that animal and we love the privilege that we have for being able to partake in that. Yeah, that's definitely something that it was always really hammered home for me growing up between you and GP Grandpa, UM, just that the seriousness of what we were doing. It was never something you would do carelessly. It was never something that was frivolous in any way. UM. Taking animal's life, as you said, was something to to to respect and to do with as much care as possible. Um, something that I never got to experience, or at least never um I could remember, was was what Grandpa was like in the moment, you know, um, after having shot a deer and walking up on or something that. Do you remember any experiences? You know? What was what was he like in that moment, because as a kid, I can remember him just being so serious, and you know it was it was just very very serious. Whether him um really expressed like joy or anything or something like that. You never saw Grandpa's ace thirty seconds after he shot a deer. I've never seen that. What was that like? And what was tell me about? Tell us? Yeah, well, so I'll tell you one story. I can tell you a lot, a lot of different stories, and these are all when I was ten years old, twelve years old, you know, young, and typically Grandpa would have wed set with him. We'd we'd go during hunting Susan either myself from my brother Steve would be out with with Dad and we had a like you mentioned, Mark, we had a group of my dad's friends that we also went hunting with and they were great so that I would hunt with one of them and Steve would hunt with the other, and again we just usually sometimes we'd have a blind that we make it, but a lot of times we just walked through the roods, find a place where we see runs coming through, where the evidence looked positive, and we'd sit and uh uh and yeah, Grandpa was real serious about his hunting. But you know, I can think of one time in particular, and it was just on the other side. This is before we got the cabin, but in the same area as I was kind of um walking through my story, I didn't get that fire. But anyway, um, so overall the oil road, we were back and back off the maybe a couple hundred yards to three hundred yards from the road, back in a swamp, and we've been there all day, all morning with the I remember, um that morning as the snow started to fall in really big flakes, you know, the half inch inch size flakes, just just floating down through the sky and covering everything. And you know how you kind of get that uh um, that hush that falls over the landscape. Yeah, I mean it's just really kind of surreal almost, And um. And I'm you know, and I did as much sleeping out in the woods because I did look something. So I'm having a good nap, you know. And and suddenly Grandpa reaches over real quietly and just bumps my shoulder and says, Dave, David, Dave, Oh my god, I see something. And so I wake up, you know, And of course I had to be really careful not to make any noise or anything like that any points. And I see this deer just kind of just spunking his way through the pines and working his way towards it, his head down and um, he's coming closer and closer, and Grandpa brings up his rifle and puts it on his shoulder, and you know, and he he says, watch, pulls the trigger and this darned deer. It turns out that this deer had really a typical set of antlers, and one of the antlers is about ten inches long, a perfect spike pointing straightforward, and it ran right at us at a full run, and just just ten yards fifteen yards maybe ten yards, and when it was really close, um, Grandpa shot again, and the the deer just veered off to the right, literally a few yards from us. And so there was a combination of the really cool experience and getting the deer and kind of feeling like we just missed being scared. So yeah, another story real quickly, and I leg it continued. You never never told us about how Grandpa expressed himself after what's crabby and said, Dave, we got it, we got it, and jumped up and down and this big smile across his face. And like you said, Grandpa was a pretty serious guy. And those were the times when we got our deer um or when we went fishing, and when we were when we were doing outdoor um hunting or fishing activities. Those are the times when I really saw the real Grandpa, because that's when he could be really relaxed and really enjoy himself and really seemed like that was when he was the happiest. And I saw that that day. Okay, so your next door well, so real quickly. Um, kind of going back to the you know, the my brother and I, UM, I don't remember how old I was again, maybe ten twelve years old, and Grandpa had gone up with Uncle Steve. Yeah, this is the two first story. So this is back on the oil road on the other side of the railroad. And um, again late November had been snowing. Um, I think Grandpa had to go to some um Academy you had to go to in Massachusetts, so wasn't able to be there for open opening day. So we went up the weekend after Thanksgiving and uh that weekend, or maybe it was the middle weekend, I guess, because Uncle Steve went with him, and so they went up again and we had the campers stay at the camper. They went out into the pines and UH came home that night with the biggest deer I've ever seen, and Uncle Steve is all excited, big big eight point um you know, by today's standards, probably three and a half maybe a four year old dere. I mean, there's a big deer for for up here. Uncle Steve is so excited and he's jumping all around and he's bragg and you don't like you what about Yeah, I got to deer. Look at this wood and he's walking up this time. We've got movies of I'm, you know, walking in from the bottom of the deer because we hung our We always hung our deer in the garage and then typically we'd come back around a few days later and we'd skinned them and we'd bowne them on ourselves and all that kind of stuff. But you know, and I'm I'm I'm little older than Steve, so of course, not only am I jealous, but I'm kind of thinking, hey, I'm the oldest. I should have gone first, you know what gives? So Grandpa felt bad, so, you know, and I keep saying to him, Hey, Dad, you know, let's go up. We're gonna go hunting, right, We're gonna get our own eight point right, And he's thinking to himself, how can I do that? There's no way I can, you know, top this. Well, so the following weekend we went back up and again I'm, you know, continue to hound him, and I'm continuing to say, man, I'm so excited. This is great, Dad, We're gonna get another big deer, right, And he's kind of, you know, kind of thing like, sure, Dave, we're gonna do our best. He was definitely. So we get back up and we went back almost to the same spot. Um. I don't know why we went to the same area, but it was along a little bit of a field and swamp on one side, and um um hardwood and the pines kind of a um, you know, kind of a half square square kind of a configuration. We're walking down the edge of the swamp and suddenly I hear Grandpa said, Dave, Dave, get down. We were walking, okay, so I didn't really expect to see much on the way a deer at that point, and uh so I went down, and you know, he brings up his right and was, Dave, it's a deer. Looks just like the one I shot last week. It must be his brother, you know. So I'm excited, you know, and I think Dad was just a Grandpa was just shaking. I mean, you could just tell he was. He was really excited, but also kind of it's the surreal thing, like how can this happen twice in a week? You know? But he you know, again, he put the beat on and pulled the trigger, and we ended up bringing home too big a points or the second a point for two um in a week time, and hung it up right next to the second and the thing that it literally looked like the other deer's brother, about the same size, about the same size rack, almost the same configuration. Um, two beautiful deer. And I got the opportunity to say, hey, I told you to my brother. It did. It was great. Yeah, it's funny. Um. Speaking of always hanging your dear in the grabs, Grandma always listen tell a story about how um she used to be appalled by that all time, like the smell of it made her sick. And then the smell of cooking venison. She cooked venison your whole lives made a lot of ves. But she always talks now about how she can't stand the smell of it and how when she was pregnant, and I guess she was pregnant, you know, she had three kids, and she always talked about how whenever she was pregnant, it would make her cry. She cried because the smell was so horrible. Is that is that right? You know that was to have happened before before I can remember, because I don't remember that. I mean Grandma was a great cook, and Graham would make venison chop suey and venison barbecue and venison. I mean, she just came up with all these great ways to make venison. And like you said, we had venison for almost every meal, many many meals. And the meals we didn't have venison, we'd have you know, lake trout or coho or whatever, because we we ate a lot of game. And Grandma got really good at cooking all of that. Um Now, I think there's something to be said that you tend to like your your mom's cooking better than whether whether it's good or not. But I think in Granma's case, it really was good and it was good, and uh I loved it. As a matter of fact, I keep nagat her because I wanted her to make chop suey again, Venison Chop suey. She hasn't made that in thirty years, and uh I really miss that. You gotta you gotta give her some venicine. The way things are going, I'm manna have to give her some of your venis. Yeah. Um, hopefully changed as soon. Um, So continue with the original line of the story though. So you guys had started, you start hunting this northern public land. You had some great experiences. One of the stories you didn't mention that was one you guys are always sleeping in the pop up camper and how your brother one time? You know, there's the beds on either side the camper right the stick out and then it sounds like there's kind of canvas walls that we were very loosely attached and crap if I'm wrong, But didn't he roll one day far enough over the edge of the bed and the canvas walled unattached, and he rolled right out of the camper. Yeah, yeah he did. Now that one actually happened up in Canada when we're up on a fishing trip in Canada. But yeah, yeah, it may have happened a couple of times. But when I'm thinking of happened up in Canada, and yeah, so we're all looking around for Steve where Steve returns off Steve's house. Yeah, we got a lot of stories. But yeah, going back to how we found this place. We uh, we'd always come up there every year we come up and it's just like just like you guys do, right, we were We would come up in June and July and August and scout and you know, dream about the season and talk about our plans and talk about all the things we're gonna do, and you know, we're gonna try this, and I'm gonna try this technique, and we're gonna go over here and so and so forth. But we you know, we were always hunting public land and um and the land was was much more heavily hunted back then than it is today, and especially when I mentioned the oil wells and the drillers that came in and split things out, and um really really improved the habitat for the deer in many respects. But but again, one time we you were, we have a stream that runs right through the middle of this property, this area of state land that we were hunting, and we followed that stream one time through um some lowlands in the swamp and a big swamp when I say swamping, a lot of down trees, big down trees, big um uh spruces and and conifers and that sort of thing. UM very difficult train to get through, especially as a kid. Okay, so this is back in and you know, the early sixties or late sixties, early seventies. But we'd still kind of make our way through. And I remember one time it would be an hour maybe two hours of trou during our way through. And we came across this little opening, came through the opening after we got across the stream, and we saw this cabin and we're looking at this cabin and it was just all by itself in the middle of nowhere. There was nothing around it. Um. And at that time we didn't even see the road or the little two track. They went to it and we kind of walked around and said, boy, this is really cool once you love to have that, and uh uh you know, kind of joked about a little bit. It was obviously somebody else's and we didn't want to bother it all, so we just went back in the woods and hunted. Well. Um ten years later, my dad ended up retiring early and um, you know, he was looking to get some property up here and that sort of thing, and he happened to be looking in the classified and saw that this that there was a cabin that was for sale a place where the sale very close to the public land that we used to hunt. So we came up and checked it out and it turned out to be the same cabin that we saw as we walked through that one time, and uh I was on a little bit of disrepair. Um the owners, the current owners of it had had it it was originally built. As a matter of fact, there's a little bit of interesting uh history to this land, the property that we have. So we have forty acres that's kind of embedded in eight thousand acres of state land, and but this area used to be um cattle farmed back in the eighteenth century. And uh, one of the things that my dad has as a deed, the history of all the deeds as was turned from generation to generation and the one of the deeds was signed by Abraham Lincoln back in eighteen sixty four or something like that. Um, so yeah, there's a little bit kind of interesting history to it. But any rate, um uh the uh we ended up the current owner of the property, his wife was ill. He was looking to sell it. My dad made an offer and it ended up being a really good thing on both sides. He wanted to sell it for a good price. My dad was was really eager to get the property. And um, we did a lot of work to it because it was in pretty bad disrepair at the time. But you know, as you've probably described in the past, Mark, you know, it's a it's a it's a sixteen by twenty four uh log cabin, naughty pine interior, really really simple propane lights. Um. You know, it's it's nothing fancy at all but big fieldstone fireplace in the middle. Um. But for us, it's it's just got so many memories and so we've hunted and that was when we at the cabin and Uh, I did a lot of work to it, put in a shed, did some other things, and we funded her ever since. Before moving on, let's take a quick break to thank our partners at White Tailed Properties this week. With white Tail Properties, we are drawn by Ben Harsheine, a land specialist out of Iowa, and Ben is going to be talking to us about buying a property with the intentions of hunting white tails as well as having cattle. Well, I think that, uh, you can only get so far if you want to have great hunting and and have cattle. Um In my area, I really don't have uh too many cattle operations in my area of expertise, but what I've seen, and I've hunted some some cattle ground here, I think the most important part would be to separate where your pastures are and where the cows are are are mainly going to spend most of their time versus where you want to hunt. If you can, if you can have timber that's actually fenced off from that pasture, uh, that's going to allow the timber to to get nice and thick and and and separate those two environments between the white tails and in the cattle. A lot of guys will say that that, uh, you know, cows don't affect big gear and in you know, I think it's a really case by case, but I do know that whenever cattle or pastured in the timber that keeps the undergrowth and the first uh, you know, say three or four feet of of important growth for a white tail, that keeps that trimmed down. So most timber that's pastured, uh is not ideal white tail habitat. So if somebody is really looking to buy a farm and they want to run cows, I would try to find something you know and and have good hunting. I would try to find something where those two are separated with good fencing. If you'd like to learn more and to see the properties that Ben currently has listed for sale, visit white Tail properties dot com. Backslash hardshine. That's h A R s h y n E. So do you do you remember then? And this is what I can't remember. I'm trying to remember your first gun of your first deer. Did that happen at ken Raven or that happened pre ken Raven and ken Rovns what we call our camp? Right? Sorry? Um? So can you walk us through that store. So that was black on the public land then right it was Yeah, so it was over off the oil world again. And I was sixteen years old, I guess I had. I had bought my first gun, which was UM over and under four twenty two, which I was really proud of, right, really cool gun. And I used to, like I said, I used to hunt with Grandpa until I turned fourteen, and then it started hunting on my own. Um and uh, either because Grandpa wanted to make sure that you know, he was fair down all the all the kids or or whatever. But um, my sister Sue would come went hunt with me for a lot of that time. And so Sue is seven years younger than me, and uh, and she's a real trooper, right, she would she get bundled up, and you know, all the scarfs and the sweatshirts and the you know, the cheap Walmart boots and all the other things that you know, frankly was really hard to get clothing and and that sort of thing for for adults, much less kids. At that time it was really warm, but for kids it was really tough. You just had to kind of find snowsuits and that sort of thing, and and bundle them up as best you could. So Susie was bust bundled up, and and so was I. But anyway, so I can remember one time we're out hunting. Can I put the time out of here? Yeah? So why did you get stuck taking your little sister off? Well that's what I've been trying to figure out. Your dad. So your dad just eventually I'm gonna pawn her off. Now, ye did Steve ever have to take her? You know, I don't think so. I think either I was the nice one, never figured that out. She probably would say that I wasn't. But any right, Um, so, like I said, was sixteen, had my over and under four two and my Yeah, so Susie would have been Yeah, she would have been nine at that time. And um, so she's hunting with me and we're going off the Royal Road back by the river the stream that runs through that that area of the of the property. Real. Um it was I think it was opening morning, or either opening morning or maybe the day after one of those really beautiful, um early mid November days. Um, really cold and crisp. The you know, you could see for a long way. I was sitting in on a kind of a mound underneath a clump of pine trees, big pine trees, looking off over the stream to my um my front to the left, and then behind us was the swamp. And um, I remember it really clearly because we're there, Susie's next to me, kind of behind me, and Susie Susie was a real trooper, but she wasn't a really good sitter, Okay, So part of why Susie would probably say that I wasn't a really good hunter with her, it was I constantly was telling her to be quiet, sometimes using stronger language, and then she get mad at me, and I get mad at her, and so and so forth. Well, anyways, so we're sitting there and um, Grandpa had dropped us off maybe an hour hour and a half before, and we've been sitting there a long time. And it's again real cool, crisp November morning, and you could hear the one of those mornings when you could hear the deer because the leaves were so crispy and and that sort of thing. And lo and behold, about nine o'clock in the morning. I remember it as as if it was yesterday. Um, I hear this crashing out to my right, and uh, you know, I immediately bring up my rifle. I had a nice scope and my my rifle. My brought it up and and pointed in the direction of the crashing because I really couldn't see because it was behind the brush and that sort of thing, and uh, you know, I kind of could tell there were multiple deer back there. Suddenly I started seeing flashes and white, you know, the els and that sort of thing coming through. So I just brought my gun over to a to an opening, and the whole time I'm saying to Susie, Susie, be really quiet, I see there's some deer going through. And okay, right, Dave, sure there's still coming through. So I, you know, put my put my scope in looking through this opening, and literally in in a second or so, this nice big five point steps right into the to the opening, and it was just, you know, one of those things that just brought the cross stairs on his shoulder, pulled the trigger, he ran. The funny part is Susie immediately stood up and started beating me, so you killed Look reston, I didn't shoot a fall, so she So what I think happened is there was a group of deer and she thought I was shooting at one of the other deer. In fact, I was shooting another. But you know, he ran fifty yards and Grandpa came over and we um, you know, we were really big and and letting the deer set and lay and and bleed out and that sort of thing. So when you know, took up and run again. So you know, a few minutes later we walked over and there it was a nice big deer, and uh and so and I of course, by that time Susie realized what had happened, and we're celebrating and you know, really cool thing and gosh, I got a chance to shoot a deer with my brother kind of thing. So the last time I think Susie wanting she didn't she didn't stick with it. No, she didn't know. But she was a real trooper. I mean, just the fact that she was out there with us, and you know, with a bunch of guys. So it was five or six guys and a you know, on a trailer and um, you know, nine year old little girl was was out there with us and and putting up with all the all the guy stuff and the poker and the cold night with a kerosene heater and you know, the outdoor to latrine and all this other stuff. She did really well. So you guys got the cabin years later. Yeah, how did stuff change afterally it? Did things change? Do you feel like, did the did the camp changed, did the culture change, did the hunting change? What was different after that point? Yeah? I think it changed a lot for a number of reasons. I mean, you know, up until that point, we're a little like, uh, you know, like wanderers. I mean, we we had our areas where we'd like to hunt, and we kind of scouted them and we knew them, but they really weren't our own and and any given time you could go to someplace that was your favorite hunting spot and there'd be somebody else sitting there, right. I mean, that's that's how hunting is, especially on public land. And um. But once we had our own property, and like I said, we have forty acres that's adjacent to and kind of embedded in eight thousand acres of public lands, and that public land you can't get to that public land except going through the private property. So it's really pretty pretty private and um uh, so it was really nice to be able to you know, build permanent blinds since this before the time of you know, tree blinds and stuff tree stands, but you know, to be able to scout and and have some confidence that you can hunt the area is that you're scouting, and that you're you know, you can start being more strategic about your honey, you could tire, you know, start doing those kinds of things. So I think it changed a lot. And then of course having a cabin to stay in every night and uh, you know, with a nice big fireplace and stove and all the other things made a world of difference as far as the comfort and and you know, having a deer camp, having a place to call our own, as modest as it is, and it is very modest, Um, it was really nice. Yeah. Did you guys have a buck poll? Yeah? Did you guys make a temporary buck pole? Oh? Yeah, yeah, we did, And we have a buck pole that we we've made, um less temporary, more permanent. Um. We you know, there are many times we'd have two three four deer hanging from that buck pole, as you know. Um. And one of the stories that I remember is you had to be so so I gotta go back and mark. So we had the cabin obviously when Mark started coming up here, and um uh so Mark was born in eighty seven, Mark started coming up here and probably ninety so about three years old. Um, those first couple of years, and Mark was just I mean he just um adored my dad, right, and he looked up to him and hopefully me to some extent. But my dad was really kind of the patriarch of the family and the patriarch of hunting camp, right, And he was the one who told all the stories about you know, uh um uh you know the hunting up up here, the things we used to do, that, all the things we saw on all the hunting trips up here. And then Katie remember ka team Mark. I'll let you tell that story. Well, Katie, it's I don't think we Maybe I don't think we told the story last year, did J I don't think so. I don't know this one, so, Katie, UM, which stands for Ken Rove until I don't know where GP, I don't know what. But you know what's funny is I, as I sit back and try to think about why I am the way I am in a lot of ways, I do think that g P was the storyteller of the family, right, He was always a storyteller. I think that probably wrapped up on me. And one of the stories he always used to tell me was about Katie. And I don't remember what her name was originally, um, but it was this young girl who went out hunting with her dad right here. She went on hunting out here, a little local and her and her dad went out hunting on an opening day and they went out sitting and it was one of those nights where it's like really cold and snowy and everything, but you could tell there was a front blowing in. You're sitting there and there's a there's a snoise and this deer comes walking out and Dad shoots, the shoots the buck, gets the deer, and the the deer runs off though, but for whatever reason, Katie's dad says, well, hey, you stay right here. I'm gonna go get the buck. You just stay here, don't leave this log. And when he leaves that log and leaves Katie and her name is I don't know, Karen, Maybe we'll call her Karen says on the log. Dad goes look for the buck, but it ran off at a distance. Well, as soon as he leaves, that front pushes through to start snowing, and it's snowing and snowing and snowing. And the dad never does find that buck, but he tries to come back to find Karen. He can't find Karen either, and he walks all over the place, can't find Karen, goes back to town, gets the locals. The locals come out and they walk and walk and walk, and they can never find Karen. Again. Well, Karen had been lost out there in the woods, and she didn't wondered what happened to dad, and she starts walking around and trying to find him, and she's lost in the snow, and she ends up getting really cold and scared. Obviously she's like seven years old or something, and um, she you know. And I'm kind of paraphrasing and embellishing a little bit as I remember the story. Um, but as I remember the story going in one way or another, I can't remember if she got cold and she snuggled up into a hole or what happened. But but one way or another, this little baby girl got hum found by a pack of coyotes, and the pack of coyotes adopted her and took care of her and a little Karen grew up with the coyotes and became the wolf Laby of the woods out here. But she never forgot Ken. She never forgot Ken Rovan, and so she she then became Ken Rovan Tilly What when When Mark was young, he used to say, you know, Mark, be really careful because sometimes in the middle of the night, if you look out one of the windows, you'll see Ken. You'll see Katie looking up with her hands up on the window, looking in, trying to find out, trying to get in to get the worm, you know, the warmth by the fireplace. So Katie at this point, by the time I was seven or years old, Katie was an old lady that ran around with long gray hair. And so yeah, I would. I would sit here. These used to be a used to be a couch, my favorite couch until my dad took it through it away the other year, which I will still not forgive before. Now it's a lousy cot um. But this big window right across the way. I would always sleep here, and that window was right in front of me, and every night I'd be afraid to look out that one day because I just knew that Katie would be staring in at me. And one time I was sitting here by myself for some reason. All you guys were gone and I wasn't here by myself, and it was just about dark, maybe for summer, and I hadn't gun hunting one night, but everybody else did and I stayed in here, so it was like last light. And it's that edge of daylight in the evening where a dark shape can morph into anything, you know, Like you see that sometimes when you're sitting out there in the morning and it's just about daylight. But at this point, is that a deer coming and then it finally becomes daylight? He rose as the bush or it's you know, something that's obviously not. I dear, what was that time of night? And I swore, I mean, I swore Katie was sitting here at the edge of the pines, about seven yards away, standing in the corner, just kind of almost like a coyote, sitting on his haunches, that's what she was doing. And you can see this long gray hair and looking right at me, and I just put remember running back to the couch and burying my head in the couch and not wanting to move till you guys got back. You know, I was eighteen years old, and you know, it was bad night. I think I figured something out. I think I now know why, Um, your aunt Sue never came back up hunting stories. Maybe yeah, all right, I ask a question. Yeah, I feel like I should know this, and I feel like I probably did know this at one time. But Kelly asked me, where does Ken Rovan come from? Where's the name of the camp come from? Yeah? And I couldn't answer. I I can't remember dead. Wow. I wish I could say for sure, But I think I know why for sure? Do you know? Yeah? Why don't you say? Well, okay, what the story I know? And you correct me if I'm wrong. But the story I know is that there is a fishing lodge off of a river around here. I think it's Pire Marquette or some other river. And um, he had flowed to the river and fished by it, knew of this lodge and seen it, and it was called Grandpa Grandpa, and the lodge is called dun Robin. And when they bought this place, he thought, you know, you gotta have a name for this place. And that kind of popped in his head and he liked that name Done Robins, so he's like, well, why don't just take Kenyan and Don Rovan and put him together, and he called Ken Roan. That's the story I know as well. Okay, and for your your listeners. So we have coming into our our camp. We have this big um you know, western ranch style entryway that used to have this big I don't know, maybe six seven ft wide by a foot or two deep um sign hanging from it with a big wooden letters spelling Ken Rovan. So it made a real kind of a unique kind of setting as you came in, and you know, we're ways off any road, We're half a mile off in many roads, and just a little tiny two track with nobody else around us. So it's really kind of a kind of cool. Yeah. Um, so, where the heck we're before that? Oh so, so we talked about Katie talked about how we got the name. But okay, yeah, yeah, So what I was curious about you were starting to talk a little bit about what I started coming up here, and that was something that I'm always curious to hear a little bit more about. So you said it was about three when I started coming up here. Yeah, Yeah, So those first few years. UM. So we had built a blind out north of our property out maybe three yards on the edge of the swamp and um, and we built it was a ground blind, but it's a really nice blinds was you know, it was pretty well built up and um with walls that you know, he provided some cover and then a top grant was really big into top, so we always had top covered, which was kind of nice. A little bit like I feel like we need to paint this picture a little bit better than because today when people think ground blinds, yeah, ground blends are much different than a canyon ground ground blends now or like fiberglass manufacture buildings. The ground blinds of the Canyon household were um usually maybe now he did. He would put a few like four by four posts in the ground and then sometimes there'd be like a strip of metal across the top or like somegated plastic on the top. And then he'd like to use like astro turf carpeting. They would go around the wall, so your walls would be astro pain And then for some reason then he would take gutter mesh the metal gutter fencing or whatever it is, and you put that all over the top and bottom of the window openings, um, which you couldn't see through. You couldn't see through. There's a little gap obviously for you shoot through. But I think I think he wanted to add that. They're my assumptions that it was somewhat see through for you, but it would break up your outline for the deer yet. Um. And then sometimes he put like a chain link curtain almost for the dentry way, like that's what's on his blind Those were fireplace fireplace screen. Yeah, that's right. Um, So that is the type of ground blind that we're talking and those are those are the top end ground blinds. We had, we lower end ground blinds, but these are the top end ground blinds. Had the astro turf carpet. So we had a top and ground online that we had built and it was as a two fer, so we intentionally built it so we can put two chairs on there and that sort of thing with the intention of sometimes Grandpa would hunt with you know, either my sister if my sister came up, or or some of the young cousins and that sort of thing. And this is after your sister, Yeah, this is after the sister. Yeah. But anyway, but this is big enough for for you. And so the first memory I have of Mark, um, you know, hunting with me is is getting into this blind. He's about three years old. We got him all bundled up, and you know, clothing proved a little bit then, so we had some better clothing and that sort of thing, and some boots. We bought surrells from Meyer or whatever. And um, we brought a bag of toys, you know, to kind of keep Mark entertained. And I remember that it's really happening. For the first season or two that you know, got in there, he's really excited to get out in the woods. And he's sitting next to me and he's asking me questions, Dad, you know, what do I do now? And where are we looking? And so forth, and well about you know, we talked. And but within about in half an hour or so, Marks on the bottom of the ground in front the you know, in the blind, planning with the toys and planning airplane. You know, that's you know, that's really funny. Is that's what Josh still does. But I gotta tell you that changed, so you know, and and and Mark just always loved being parted deer Camp and I can't really can't forget. Um it was about that age, maybe four, and we had a particularly successful year. We had three deer hanging on them on the buck pole and um, three yeah, three deer. Yeah, one or two of them were pretty good sized, pretty good size box and uh, you know Mark, I've got you've got movies of this of Mark walking out in his you know, flame orange sweatshirt and bundled up. You know, he looks like a little like a Michelin man and dressed in orange. He's walking underneath the deer, you know, when he's pointing up with them, when he's looking up and you know, you can just tell when we'd all be inside the cabin, you know, playing poker, and that's sort of Mark. We Mark would disappear and we'd go outside. Where's Mark. We'd go out with a flashlight in China, and here's Mark standing under the deer, you know, looking up at the deer, and you know, I can just imagine he's thinking, you know, I'm gonna shoot me one of them. So but you know, the real seminal moment for me, the time when I knew that it was all over for me, was about maybe five years later, Mark was maybe nine years old, maybe ten, and we're actually back in the same same place, same blind and um uh it was another cold mooring. Uh. Mark and I were hunting together. You know, Mark's a little bigger, um, little little outerer. Um. So at this particular time, we're in the woods, um, and we're hunting, and we're out there and and you know, for whatever reason, um, you know, Mark had gotten pretty aggressive. And at that point he said that he's been reading. He thinks he knows everything there is to know about deer hunting, you know. And so he's telling me about you know, Dad, you have to make sure you do this, and you make sure you do that. And he's eight years old or nine years old. Okay, by the way, something's never changed. But I'll never forget. So so you know, um, I I have a vision challenge, so for me, it's sometimes hard to see things distance, right. So I'm there and we're hunting, and and Mark suddenly Mark kind of you know Jazzine the sciences. Dad, Dad, there's a deer coming right through there. And so and of course I'm you know, I still think I'm a father. So I said, Okay, Mark, you don't be really quiet, and Dad, I'm quiet. Okay. So so I'm waiting and I'm waiting and Mark's Daddy's He's getting closer. Daddy, He's right behind it. It's a buck, wasn't dear it was? It was a big buck. Yeah. It was the first buck that we had ever seen together with hunting right right, And and I, for whatever reason, I just didn't see it right. And I, you know, brought my rifle up and I was pointing in the wrong direction because I didn't see the deer and it wasn't making any noise. And Mark's just finally, after about ten minutes of this sneaking well whatever it probably it felt like ten minutes, it felt like I felt like longer. So finally you could just see the virtual Mark puts his hands on his hips and says, okay, yeah, just give me the gun. And I did. I mean I did. I was like, I remember being like, Dad, just give me the gun. Just give me the gun. Dad, just give me the gun. Um. And he wouldn't give me the gun. Um. You were eight years old, and I remember coming back to camp, and as my older self now looking back on it, I feel really bad about it. Actually, Um, I imagine you probably felt bad about the situation, and then you have your little snot nose punk eight year old son come back to camp and tell everyone I always saw this buck. Couldn't you couldn't see it. I couldn't see the buck, telling the bucks right there, and I wanted to go. He wouldn't give me the gun. Couldn't see it. So if I were you, I would't. I wouldn't have been surprised. You could have knocked me over the head and I probably deserved it. Um. But I do remember that. I remember, I can I can see exactly where that buck walked through in my mind's eye right now. Well, but there's another another seminal moment. So there's there's these things, you know, just like you have kind of milestones in your life, which that you think about it, the whole world changed when you got to that milestone. So that that event with the with the g dad, just give me the gun, I'll shoot that was one of those. But there was another one, and it was actually a little bit before that, maybe sex maybe seven. So always at that point, you know, I would lead the way as we went into the woods. I would forge the trail and I'd find my way through the brush and back to the blind and Mark would diligently and dutifully follow me. Well, something happened around seven years old. He decided he wanted to lead, and suddenly, instead of me saying Mark and I gotta be really quiet, you know, make sure look for dear Mark was saying, Dad too loud, very quiet, look for dear Dad. I know it's all over. I don't remember when I remember, but I do remember at some point after the gun give me the gun incident. It was sometime after that incident when I I don't even know. I don't remember when it was that I remember, but at some point it definitely the role shifted in my mind where it went from you telling me what to do to me telling you what to do. And it definitely was before it probably should have. So Dad coughs so loud, he sniffles so loud, he moves so loud, he moves too much. Somethings haven't changed, oh man. But but yeah, a few, a few of the moments that stand out to me. I definitely remember to give me a gun incident, and then you talked about that when I was standing out there looking at the buck pole. I the year I remember was the year that I've I've told this story many times in the podcast. Everybody probably knows the store, but it was it was the year that GP shot his big seven point the biggest, the biggest buckets on the wall right now. And that's the year I remember walking out and recovering that buck in the snow, and then there's the two big bucks on the buck pole, and I remember that you're looking at those just for days, just going out there and standard looking. Um. But um, you know the other thing I say, Mark, just just another thought. You know, you were always a really important part of deer camp for us. So you know, I guess one of the one of the call outside make to all the listeners is, you know, bring your kids with you. It is such a such an important thing to have your kids to be part of the experience. And uh, I think for you, um, for us. You know, this group of men, multi generational group, you know, five, six, seven of us, UM, some of us you know, as old as seven years old probably at that point, and then there was you and UM. And I think that just that it brought freshness and the spirit and the joy of hunting. Because you're passing it onto the next generation. And you see, you see the excitement and the um, um, just the fascination that a young person has as they're they're going out in the woods and they're shooting their first year and they're experiencing all these things. I just can't say how important it is enough. Yeah, we did a podcast couple months ago, me and two of my friends, UM, talking about introducing your kids to the outdoors and trying to you know, help create a new hunter. And all of us were speaking, um, far ahead of our turns because I had only been a dad for like five months at that point, and one friend had only been a dad for like five or six years. Another guy been a dad for ten years. UM, So they hadn't they hadn't had a successful end result. Yet you raised a son who really got into hunting so much so that his whole life basically revolves around it now. So you really won that one. You figured that out. So what do you think you did right when it came to raising a young kid to become a hunter that maybe you could pass on to folks that would hope to do this same. Do you remember the what I used to say feed the habit, feed to have you have it. What did that mean? Well, you you were debt, you had you had a tough love um way of raising me in a lot of ways, and it was really important to you, um that I had to worked for just about everything, all right. You weren't going to give me a car, you weren't gonna give me this, you know whatever. It was like. So nothing, very few things were given to me easily. But one thing that I was spoiled on was hunting or fishing gear because he said it was one thing that you wanted to feed the habit. That was something that you thought was really positive, that you thought was productive for me to be to be spending my time doing. So that was one area where you would, um, if I showed an interest and really wanted to get involved with something, you would definitely make sure that that could happen, you know. And I think the other thing we try to do is we always try to buy um decent gear because I think one of the one of the things that I remember going back to my childhood, um, you know, trumping through the woods with clothing that was just terrible clothing to be on the woods with, right, I mean I got cold as almost as soon as I walked out of the camper, I was called, um, you know it boots that your feet constantly frozen, UM field field glasses that were you know, Kmart specials. I mean, just you know, I think you don't have to go out and buy the best equipment, but I think there's a lot to be said. We all, as hunter and hunters and fishermen were always looking at the greatest gear and the gear that we ourselves can go out and use to to do our our hobby. But don't forget your kids. And and again you don't have to buy the best equipment, but don't buy the cheapest. Give them given gear that that they're going to get excited about and it's going to allow them to have that kind of experience. And I think that's what we tried to do with you. Yeah, I mean I definitely. Oh though, to tell you the truth, I remember having to buy my own first real seven like camouflage gear, and I bought it myself. I remember, I'm sick of wearing this lousy hand me down orange jacket or something. I remember exceptions. Remember when I started working at Gander Mountain is when I really up to my hunting quality gear. I took it to a new level there. Well, and you know when I stay buying good gear. I mean some of that came later and largely because of my discount probably discount. Absolutely that was great. That was one of the worst days of my life when you quit. I think I have helped makeup for since a little bit. Um but uh, funny um. Another story that just popped in my head that now we're really fast forward in that clock. But now I don't know I'm a teenager or something like this, And I can't remember I've told this story to many people. I don't remember how I told the podcast. But one of my favorite Ken Rovan stories that involved you actual remember if I told this story? Do you know the story of men? Tell? It's the walk, the night Walk story. I don't think I know that night Walk story. I don't think so. I think you'll know when to tell him. Um. So, And this this is has to do with my grandpa. And we talked a lot about previous about how he's a pretty serious individual, like he was not, at least at least around me. I never knew Grandpa's like a jokester. Um. You know, I mean, you know, he could have a good time, but he was not traditionally that type. So we're all in here in the cabin late at night after hunting and sitting around the fire, just like we're doing right now. And my dad and my uncle I thought, you know, it's hot in here, right The fires really really warmed it up in here, beautiful night outside, the stars were out. One of the two of you said, you don't want to go for a walk down the road, down the two track. So Bill and Dave go and they're gonna go for rock down the two track, all the rest of us staying here sitting around talking. Ten fift minutes goes by, we're chit chatting. GP goes out to the bathroom. We're still sitting around here and you know, telling stories and restoking the fire and everything. And another five minutes goes by, and then all of a sudden, her boom bum bum bum boom, and footsteps come running up the deck and the door flies open, and my dad and Bill running here, and my dad's bent over, hands on his knees. You guys wouldn't believe it. What in the world has happened? And then Bill and Dad go on to say that they're walking down the road and all of a sudden they hear, well, what did you hear? Tell us, what did you hear? Heard this blood curdling screech just where I don't think you hears screech. I thought you heard the crashing and like the growling was both. It was both. It was the screech and then the growling and then crashing after that. Well, how do you explain the screech? I don't know. I mean, it was just Grandpa making a noise. Like well, because when you guys came running in here, you thought that there was a oh yeah, oh yeah, we did. So you described this bear having been like crunching through the woods, making a bunch of noise and coming towards you. And then you and Bill come and running all the way down the road, all the back to Cam freaking out. Maybe his Bill that screamed yeah, not like but but you're absolutely right. We looked at each other and we we had flashlights, but they were both I think the batteries were prolo because we didn't really have much light. And it's just one of those things where you know, it was already kind of a it was a beautiful night, but it was also kind of a creepy night. And I don't know if you remember, that was the time when we had the coyotes and large quantities around us, so we had, you know, um um groups of coyotes that that seemed like they were just a couple of hundred yards away. So I mean, just this the atmosphere was really kind of spooky and just kind of you know, so, you know, Uncle Bill, it's pretty hard to scare Uncle Bill. Right, you know, here's a he's a pretty uh, pretty big burly and not big, but it's certainly a strong and powerful wrestler type, and not much would scare him. But we both we heard that, and we don't remember what we were talking about. We must have been talking about something that kind of set us up for it, because I remember hearing that. We looked at each other wide eyed, you know, saucerers for eyes, and we just and Uncle Bill and I just did a dead heat back to the cabin. Did you ever think that obviously couldn't have been a bear, because we know that Bill is faster than you, so you would have been eating probably if it had been a bear. Alright, you only need to out run on persons. I just need to out run the slowes guy. So Bill won the race back to camp and you come running in here and you tell us, oh my gosh, there's a bear or something out there, like, oh man, that's crazy. And then a couple of minutes later we hear steps on the deck again, and then we realized, oh jeez, Grandpa hadn't come back from the bathroom yet. And he opens the door and he looks and here at us, and then he just starts laughing, didn't he starts That's the first time time in my life I can remember Grandpa doing a practical joke. And so I don't know which was worse, just the shock of what had happened or knowing that his grandpa that did it. That's the Grandpa snuck out into the woods, works his way around you guys. And then yeah, it's yeah, it's so unlike him and so hilarious. Yeah, yeah, that was very funny. We got a lot of good laughs out of that one. Um, are there any other moments up here that stand out? You know, you talked about different seminal moments with me or or with him or with anyone else, and any others that stand up for. So this is maybe one an example that of one that stands out for. Relatively recently, we've joked about this. This happened was last year or the year before. Um so, you know, having had a deer up here in a while. Um, I think it was two years ago. I guess it was. So I have a blind I called the trench line, which is down from the cabin hundred yards or so, and um it's it's a you know for us old guys, it's an easy walk. We'll we'll we'll say the dad is very particular about his entry and exit routes. Well we'll spend it that way for your dad. You're really good at entry and exit. So a smooth, quiet hundred yards. So so let's say it's a beautiful, beautiful evening. Um uh, Mark and Josh went out to south. It was just yeah. So so it was about three o'clock. Mark and I finished up what we were doing, had dinner or lunch brother and Mark takes off and goes south, goes to a tree stand over the food pot and U uh, So I decide I'm gonna go out and hunt the trench bline at night and I've I've seen a lot of deer at the trench bline. It's been a pretty good place for deer. Despite the easy access and etcida. It's been a good line. So I get over there. It's about maybe, you know, four o'clock or so quarter to three, because of course I don't go in quite as early as Mark does. So I get out there and it was first five or quarter No no, no, no, not that bad. But I get out there and I noticed that, you know, now, this is a this is a kind of similar kind of blind of what Mark was describing before. So it's a Grandpa blind. It's you know, it's got the corduinated top, and the four by four is on the corners, and the AstroTurf a on the side, and you know, etcetera. And it used to have the cutter and cutter together, but I've torel that down. But are you right? Um? And so I get there and I noticed that that some of the carpeting had fallen down on the side. So you know, I mean, I look at my watch and it's quarter to four. And I said, why, you know, I got some I got plenty of time. Of course, Mark would tell you that Dad's not quite the hard core hunter that he is not just not quite just not quite quite yeah, just a little bit. So I go, you know, I'm close to the cabin. So I go back to the cabin. I get the staple gun. Can you imagine what I would have done if I'd been there and seeing this. That's why I did it. After your left. Mark will never know, you know, you know things have really changed when you gauge everything you do by what Mark would do. So I sneaked back out to the blind. You didn't sneak, and I staple up the carpet. I'm surprised Mark didn't hear that from here. Probably I could have. I was I was busy class I was in the climber so I was climbing up at this moment. I was climbing up in my climbing trees stand. And you didn't hear anything. I didn't hear. But yeah, that's because I was making a whole bunch of noise. So you know, so I made the very discretionary wise move. She started not bring the staple gun back to the cabin. I should put around of the chair and I sat down and you get settled and bring my rifle up. You know, I kind of starts scanning with my glasses and you know, looking for deer, and suddenly here's some crashing off to my right, and look over and here's a beautiful turned out to be a five point nice, beautiful deer, you know, sneaking his way through towards from the right towards my center and literally just one of those things that was really close to me. Frankly, I didn't. I thought he'd see me and take off. Mind you, this is five minutes after I stapled the carpet. And what I love though, is that you had the audacity too. You see the buck he's walking in and then you know us that one of the one of the Caster turf car class. It was still flapping. See grabbed the staple then really fixed that. I didn't do that, but anyway, so I brought the scope up and put the crossars on his shoulders and pulled the trigger and um, deer runs off and um and I text mark the story, you pull the trigger, you shoot this deer. I had just gotten and settled in my climbing tree stand. It's like three thirty or something like that. I had just gotten settled and I'm just sitting down. I think I just pulled up my gun. And then I was like, boom, jump out of my pants. I mean, so close to me, so loud, and it's three thirty in the afternoon. It came from right where you're sitting. And the first thing I thought was, oh my god, my dad fell and the gun went off and he shot himself or something like, there's no way he shot a deer at first of all, my dad, second of all, and he's a hundred yards from the cabin. Yeah, like, there's no way this could be a good thing. So immediately I was I panicked. I was like, oh my god, something really bad just happened. And I was about to climb down, and I thought, I'm gonna give him one No, I was either going to give you one minute and call you, or maybe I called you immediately. I think I called you immediately, and if he was an answer, I'm I'm running over there, like we un fair, what's going on? But I was scared. I wasn't excited. I was like scared, and I call you and then then we picked up, like what just happened? Good shot a bull? It blew my mind absolutely blew my mind. I couldn't believe it was crazy, blew your mind. And you had no idea about the staple. Yeah, I didn't even know about the staple incident yet. If I had known him, that color me surprised. The whole thing was pretty wild. But yeah, we went over there and waited, waited an hour, and then tracked him right to where he's at. And that was a cool moment. That was the first I mean as the first moment like that we got to share together, um a long time, in a long time, and I guess we had we killed the buck with me a few years before that back in southern Michigan. Um, but that was the first one up here, So that was that was really cool. Um, that was a good one, Ash. Do you have any of some further stories, Do you any further stories you need to share, or any questions about any other questions about the history of this place stories? I mean, my my one story from up here as when I'd rather not share, I think you spendenty of times. Yeah, um, not one of my finer moments. But that's really the only dumb thing I've thinking I've done up here, And that's pretty good. For me, I was gonna say, you mean you you calendar your events by how many dumb things? I try to focus really hard when I'm here, so I don't do anything stupid. I'm just really glad I'm not alone. Yeah. Do you guys like when I'm not around? Do you just like commiserate about what an asshole I have? Something? Is that basically what you guys talk about? That Mark who brought him along? Oh? Man? Oh, well, let's is uh. It is always always good to be up here, and I love I mean, I could keep asking you to just tell story after store. I just love hearing all the old stories. And I was like that when I was seven years old, and I'm still like that now at thirty one, and hopefully at forty seven, I'll still be the same way. Well, he as a as a dad and a new grand father. My excitement is being able to share that all over again with your son, Everett. Yeah, I am very very excited. I was already thinking about that tonight. I told you earlier today that thinking about um kind of taking Grandpa's old ground blend. He had a spot that he he used to hunt and hear the most, and that's I hunt around that area. Now it's kind of become my little zone that I hunt a lot. We've been working on these food plots around there, and I killed my first buck kind of oven near there, and so I kind of inherited that spot. And um, his old ground blend, though we haven't really done anything with since grand passed, and it's kind of fallen under disrepair and the bears have kind of tore it up. And so the foundation, like the poles are still there and the roofs still there, but all the carpeting has fallen down, and the gut arest I was fallen down, and the little fireplace screens still there. Um, but I was, I was standing out in front of it. And actually, interestingly, it's weird. You know I told the start a couple of weeks ago, and you had told me this well mid October, mean further are here we're hunting. I'm sitting this tree stand overlooking this field, a little food plot. Now you can see the ground blind. And as I was sitting there, I was thinking about Grandpa and thinking about all these memories, and thinking about the first set I ever had out here, which had been in that ground blind. In that first moment I remember seeing dear and I'm thinking about all these things, and then this black bear shows up undernathing. First time I've ever seen the bear appear. Really cool moment, and you know, I did a video about it and things like that, and then you Dad texted me a couple of days later or a week or so later, and you said, what was the date of that? And I said it was October fift and you said, well, that was exactly six years to the day of his passing, right, it was a six year anniversary was passing. So that was that was like, oh wow, Like that was like such a kind of a wild thing to have happened that day as I was thinking about him and all that stuff right there. And interestingly, today, um, I am back out there again, and I go out there to hunt, and I'm walking across the plot in the morning and I noticed fresh bear tracks walking across the plot and I follow us fresh bear tracks and they literally walk two steps away from the ground. One they walk right to the blind and just divert right around it by two steps, walked right by Grandpa's blind. And so it's almost like the bear walked me to the blind. And then I was like, well, I should hunt there to night. And so I sat there tonight thinking about more, and I told you Dad that, you know what, I think I should fix it back up again, and that should be the first place that ever hunts when he comes up here with me, kind of full circle, the first place that's at and now I can take my son to sit there again. Um, And it's it's kind of like this, you know, I don't know what it is, spirit animal or whatever. The bear kind of led me to it again after that cool earlier. I don't know, it's all kind of strange coincidence or something, but kind of cool. So I think that's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna get that fixed up again. And I can't wait to take my son up here and to introduce him to all these things and these stories and you know, and you know, we talked about how Grandpa buying large was a pretty serious guy. But you know where Grandpa was the happiest, where he really was himself and really enjoyed things the most was when he was out in the woods or in a boat with you, fishing or hunting. He was always it's it's you know, there's all sorts of stories about Grandpa and some you know, he was a tough guy sometimes, but I will always remember those moments that he just was, you know, taking me to do all these things with him and you and him and me, going places and hunting and fishing. I mean that those are like the the foundational experiences of my life. Um, yeah, did you ever think you'd be doing this? No? No, but it's it's you know, all those things made me who I am today, which had made it just led me to have the opportunities I've had. Have you ever told the story about sitting in your your dorm slash apartment near Columbia University in Manhattan and interning at Fleishman Hillard and Board and out of your tears and decided to start up Wire to Hunt. Yes, I have. I had told this story. So people are probably sick of this story. I won't regale that one again. But yeah, I mean there's been a lot of interesting things that led to let us here now, which is pretty cool, and it all started here. It's a little Kevin with that's largely just about the dang same as it was when I was here at three years old. I mean, the same pictures on the wall, the same deer on the wall. There's still no electricity, there's still no running water, there's still no running toilet. The woman folks still don't want to come up here. First thing that happens when I get home is your mother says strip. Yeah. But unfortunately it's not for any good reasons. I'm sorry this is it's not because they're trying to make kidnap before. If we're going down that road, Mark and I could keep this podcast going if we want to tell the embarrassing Yeah, there's there's all sorts of embarrassing stories that we won't tell about you, Dad, Um, but we will say that that the cabin does have a little bit of a unique odor to it. Supposedly that all of our wives claim that when we come back, we have a smell of ken robin to us. And so yeah, Mom always makes you take all your clothes is off in the garage, and then my wife now does the same thing. I had to keep all my stuff in the mud room. It's a mixture of the fire and those middle of the night buck grunts that go on. You know what's the worst, Josh is when you're laying on the couch and then the and then the elder statesman of the cabin comes walking by and then happens to pause for a moment right in front of your face, and then there's a buck grunt mysteriously and then like you feel the hair on the side of your head to kind of shifts to one of the song It's a bad night. You know. I'm really glad this podcast is not nationally citicated those old buck grunts. I would have rather gone cold than have the fire get stoked that night. Yeah, that was one of those nights that the fire wasn't then port I'm on that note. I think we will. I think we'll wrap it up unless uh any final thoughts. First, just thank you guys for allowing me to come up and inviting me to come up every year. This is one of the favorite my ever times of the year is getting to come up here and hang out for a couple of days. It's never long enough, but it's always a great time when we get up here, and and uh man, it's just uh, I can't thank you guys enough for your part of the including me in this. It's this is a lot of fun, So thank you and uh Dad, any final thoughts. Well, just thanks for the opportunity. It's nice to listen and here all your podcasts and here you're all the questions that your audience asks and to have a little opportunity to just play a little part of that's cool. It is cool. It's uh, it's fun to have you on the show. It's a it's fun to also be able to be here and do all the things. And I suppose on the topic of thanks, I should thank you father for having done such a great job introducing me to hunting and fishing in the outdoors and all these things that have become the foundational element of my life. So thanks to that. Thank you Grandpa, Thank you Ken Rovin, and uh, thank you everyone for listening to us share these stories, dear camp, and with that we'll shut this one down. So thank you for joining us, especially on this holiday week. I hope you had a great time with friends and family over the Thanksgiving break and maybe you get to hit the tree stand or the ground blind as well. So I will just give you a couple quick reminders. Number One, the wired hunting merchandise. We've got hats and t shirts. Those are available again over at the Meat eater dot com. If you go to our shop, you'll find all that stuff in there. Speaking things in this shop, Steve Vanilla's new cookbook is available that Steve and j Honest and the whole team worked on. It's the new Hunting and Fishing cookbook, full of recipes for everything from deer, elk, alligator, squirrels, salmon, all sorts of stuff. It's it's really an incredible book. Would highly recommend you check it out. Last I saw it was number four of all books on Amazon, which is pretty incredible. So heading over to Amazon or Barnes Noble or wherever you pick up books and check that out. And with that last plug out of the way, I will let you all go enjoy the rest of your holidays. Best of luck in the woods, and until next time, stayed Wired to Hunt. M. H.