00:00:08 Speaker 1: This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bug bitten and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You can't predict anything. Uh this this is embarrassing. Uh. The dude wrote in, like this is kind of like stunningly embarrassing. But a guy wrote in, and uh, he's driving all around the place. He says he drew from. He drove from northwest Wisconsin, through the Prairie provinces of Canada into the Yukon, all the way to the Alaska coast, ten thousand miles of highway, listen to a bunch of podcast episodes, and decided he need to scold me about attributing a quote to Aldo Leopold that Elder Leopold did not say. The quote is ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching, even when doing the wrong thing is legal, which I've quoted a thousand times. He says, Leopold never said such a thing ever. Now he like goes down to be real mean to me. This guy's name is Keith. But then you could tell that he had the same problem because I have searched through the Leopold archives and Madison, Wisconsin. While writing on a related topic, and I found no such quote anywhere in his writings or speeches. He scoured all of his works, doesn't find those words. Last year, after seeing an anti hunting group and a pro hunting group both use that quote in the same week, attributing it to Leopold, I decided to answer the question once and for all. I contacted an Old associate, Curt Mind, the world's greatest Leopold authority, a trustee of the Leopold Foundation, a professor of ecology at University of Wisconsin, the author of the definitive Theopold Biography. He doesn't know where that quote came from either. He has read every quotable word Leopold ever wrote or said. Gosh, I feel like in Bugle magazine's column, Dude, what's that column called ethics or situation ethics? I believe is the column? Come on, someone helped me out. Nobody else reas No, No No, I don't know. I don't want to say that that quote attributed to Aldo Leopold is like in the header of that column. I've been reading that son of a bitching quote for my not my whole life, but a lot of it. I got turned on to Eldo Leopold. I could tell you the year I got turned onto Eldo Leopold would have been the reason I'm thinking of that year because that was the first year we tried to cook a de Year's tongue, which we'll be talking about shortly. Um. Another thing, research just came out. They've been doing this extensive study of links and fishers. Hold on, we done with the quote, what did you do? Feel like? I feel no, but I feel like I feel like he's probably right as rude as he is. Here's how he ends his email. Eldo was a great man and a deep, deep thinker. But he never said what you keep saying. He said, stop it. That's how he ends, just straight talk. Stop it sounds like my daughter. Oh, I think we're gonna get that one. Well, I didn't say his last name, the run round name Keith from other people. He dudes are driving around ten thousand mile loops named Keith. I believe that this will be his favorite podcast of all time. Oh yeah, Oh, he'll eat it up. He'll eat it up because he's like, yeah, you're wrong, this one's for you. Yeah. He's got a lot of um. He's he's one of those dudes that uh is like and you get to the bo of his email and he has a lot of logos of his affiliations, like you know you're going like hunting, fishing, chat rooms for ums. Everybody ends with like a quote CP can shooting twice is stupid stuff like that. Like guys who like have a quote that like really sums up their personality. He runs with um, he runs with like his affiliations. I like the guy because he's the kind of guy that rather than sitting there being annoyed mm hm, he's like you know what he'd probably like to know. I'm gonna send him no Nope. But in his email stop it the bottom tagline. He doesn't have any Leopold quotes. No, I'd even put that quote in the bottom I think. And I was gonna say that I said it nothing not one seven or now that no one knows where it came from. Yeah, maybe maybe he's just giving you permission to just own that one. So I'm gonna start I'm gonna start making the dice said it. And after you're quote, he says Steve right now, and then it says thank you, Keith. Here's another quote that probably isn't true, But I heard that Sammy Hagar. Have we talked about this for you? Honest, I don't think so. I heard that Sammy Hagar, and I even looked up to see if he said this. It kind of doesn't make sense, but I heard that Sammy Hagar said that his lyrics come from thinking he knew what someone was saying in a song, and then learn what they're actually saying, and then just took what he thought they were saying and made it a song. So kind of plagiarism, like how in in a God to you know, in the Garden of Eden, it sounds like he's saying in a God of DaVita, So it'd be like if you wrote a song like, well, now that I know he's saying in the Garden of Eden, I'm going to write a song where someone says in a Godadvita. But I don't know what he could have heard that would make that where he thought they were saying I can't drive fifty five? Oh yeah, the original Like what was the song? No, he is saying, do you know what thise know what I'm saying said? So you can't take that and go like, well, that's how he must have come up with I can't drop a great example song. I can't remember who the original artist is, but stuck in a low die again? Yeah oh yeah, Creten, Yeah, thank you. For many years decades, I thought that they were saying, only the Good Die young. There's a similar song similar to lyrics and sounds. So that's how they came up with that song, only the Good Die Young. That's how Billy Joel came up with that. Maybe I thought Towns Vand's aunt penned. He might have, He might have not created he wrote. He wrote every song. Unbeknownst to a lot of people. He wrote all the songs. Yeah, tragic him and J J. Kale can move on to this fisher research out of Maine. There's everbody knows that a fisher is. So it's a remember the Weasel family Mustarland like a souped up Pine Martin, which is like a souped up easil. Uh. They're doing some links research in Maine and they're finding that and this is bizarre. They're finding that fissures successfully prey on links. Wow wow, because they're putting they have links with they have collared links. And what people do when they're doing mortality studies. Is you you put a collar on a thing that like logs a GPS waypoint every whatever. I don't know, I don't know what's typical in a mortality study, but it logs a GPS waypoint every x hours and then all of a sudden you see that thing doesn't move for an unusual period of time, and then you go there quickly and ask try to ascertain what's going on. They're doing the links work in the winter sort of snow on the grounds. You can get a pretty vivid picture of what happened, and fishers seem to get on their trail and track them. And they even mentioned in this thing that it seems that during snow flurries, during snow storms, they will make their move and jump on the links and kill it by biting the back of its neck. Now there should also be known about fishers, is there's some bad mo fols because they're one of the few things that really regularly kills porcupines. They get them rolled over and attack the soft quillst belly patch. Pine Martin's too too right. I don't know about Pine Martins. I heard that, um their cousins. Yeah, Uh. Guy rode in about Mark Kennyon was on this show, and he's talking about eating apples. How you can eat apples to mask your the scent that you breathe out. Uh if that works now, I remember hearing the same thing about carrots, Like, eat a bunch of apples, then you smell like something. Do you would want to eat this guy, I was saying one of the upsides, he acknowledged the many downsides. One of the upsides of being a chaw dog is that he when he's up in his tree spitting out che spit, he's he's that deer come up and lick up that dip. WHOA, you don't buy that, No, it's gonna get people chewing. Yeah. A guy rode in that we talked about you too much, and it's gonna make and we've got a coup. People right in and say that us talking about you made him made them start dipping again. Relapse. He pulled a new gas station and bought it him well, and another guy said that we're talking about dip and I feel like when I'm talking about I'm talking about people getting cancer and riddled with holes in their face. But he said, we're gonna make kids start dipping if we don't stop talking about dip. So I I hesitated to talk about the deer attracting qualities. But the one thing that we're missing there is that you don't have to catalyze dipped have a smell by putting in your mouth. You just bringing extra yetie down to the cannon. There is some hot water and then but around your tree stand like. It doesn't have to touch your body. That's a good point. Can you just buy a log, Yeah, have a just dribble it the whole way out cancer free, or just just have Garrett just put the lid on a bunch of his Garrett Gatorade bottles. Yeah, yeah, you're going to you're doing a sporting good star next to the doing the doing rut yurin is just a bottle of dog should be Dug Duran's piss and Dirt's cheese dirt spit. Or you make a concoction of Buckman juice, Buckman juice and dirt myths spit with some apple. That'd be a great product. Man. It was, Yeah, Doug Duran's urine mixed with Dirt's cheese spit and it's like a deer to be like the world's greatest deer tracks. You can just call it rut. Okay, one more quick thing I did my crraction. I talked about deer looking up dip talked about fishers. I'm gonna touch on New Zealand. It's a kind of baffling situation and no one here is gonna have an expert opinion on that and everything. Guy was talking about Seth Right, you were just sharing with us recently about shot gobbling turkeys by throwing rocks and stop signs. Okay, guy hunting up state in New York, and he says the most beautiful shot gobbling that occurs is that he hunts by a lake that has a lot of loons, and in the spring, the loon, a loon will light up the little shot gobbled turkeys. That's what I have not heard before. Added to the list. Who can do a loon call? That's tough. That's pretty good, not bad? Uh. Okay in New Zealand. Now this is this is just telling. I'm just telling you this. I can't put any There's nothing I can do here for you. I'm providing nothing but telling about this is outside of my area of expertise. I'm deeply American, but um, just as like game management in Africa baffles me, game management in New Zealand baffles me. But there's a debate going on where like in New Zealand, um, the the sort of radical left of the environmental movement is very anti game animals because there's no game animals native to New Zealand. They had those big five pound birds, but they killed them all prior prior. I think there was always yeah, but I think they were extinct prior to European contact, like the indigenous people. I think once it was settled by you know what became the indigenous population, those birds were wiped out. But when when Europeans started showing, they started trucking over all the game animals that were familiar with from Europe and also Asia and even some from North America because they put some elk here in there. But they brought tar over Himalayan tar and caught him loose in New Zealand. And they occupy the alpine areas of News Zealand and apparently cause some amount of damage to native flora. So the hunters want all the game animals they like to hunt for him and the left side of the environmental spectrum would like to see them eradicated. And right now there was like some really aggressive coal was proposed. And typically when they go in cold tire in New Zealand, so the government shoots him out of helicopters. The reasons you see so much crazy stuff have in New Zealand would never go on here, like you know, landing helicopters next to animals and killing them and having year round hunting with no bagging them. It's it's all because it's non native. It's all non native wildlife that isn't particularly welcome in a lot of places. But when they when the government guys are up shooting him out of helicopters. A lot of times I'll just shoot the females and they'll leave bowls so guys can go hunt them. But someone came up with this really aggressive coal plan which would have you know, I guess, once and for all, put the finishing touches on a nun for these populations of tar, and the hunters got all mad. We had a lot of hunters from New Zealand right and into us saying, hey man, you should speak up on this, but I can't really speak up on it with real authority, because I don't really understand, but I know that when I'm like, oftentimes you'll see hunters in New Zealand and Australia kind of be like, hey, hunting here is good or hunting here is okay because it's all non natives. Anyways, we got to get rid of the non natives. So it puts you in a weird situation if you've been articulating that perspective and all of a sudden, I you're like, oh, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, don't kill them all right, it's a weird situation. What was the aggressive plan the like liberal left or whatnot came up with. Oh, it was killing hundreds of thousands of tar and shooting all the bulls. Yeah, and you have to assume there's probably like flavored with a little bit of anti hunting sentiment the way it's presented to me, because he used to leave bowls around because without females are not doing allowed to explode the population. And then hunters google hunt the bulls. Yeah, and you know whatever, get the highs eat me. I own a toward New Zealand. This is probably one of the more dangerous hunts I've ever been on. What's your take on it? Man? My take is I remember visiting, introducing yourself. Oh this is Eduardo Garcia. Everybody, thanks for being here morning. Yeah. So, having never been in New Zealand, UM, I still think that anybody who lives on this earth can have some type of perspective and and it's just based on where you've been in life. So my perspective on the non native species goes back to a trip I took in my early twenties when I was working as a yacht chef. So um, we were on a boat at a San Diego and we went to an island called Guadalupe Island, which is southwest of San Diego in the Pacific Ocean. And it's a it's not a huge island, but let's call it fifteen miles in length and maybe four miles and it's most whitest part and it just comes straight up out of the Pacific, so super deep blue water right off shore. We were going there to fish for tuna and to um uh check out the great whites that literally just troll the perimeter. It's part of a triangle of migration between San Francisco, Guadaloupe and Hawaii for great whites and Pacific and one of the great whites feed they're feeding on seals. They're feeding on seals. Yeah, it's pretty sketchy kayak right into shore. They're feeding on seals there. And then and then if you're fishing like we were, you know, you're ending up with tons of carcasses. And so a good time is to just wrap a line on a yellow tail uh tuna or yellow fin tuna's tail and you'll have eighteen footers hitteen footers just cruising after you. After you cut the meat out. Yeah, you'll have a cooler and you just put open the drain a little bit and have a carcass in there and just be dribbling blood into your you know behind when you're swinging. Oh yeah, um. So that's what we're there for, you know, with with the boss fishing. And but when when we also went hiking on the island, and this island was mostly de nuded. There was very little trees, there was very little um flora and fauna, and and there was skulls and live goats, so dead and live domestic goats all over the island and what I learned was that um whalers back in time time of yore had dropped these goats off on their way out to the like Eastern Islands and explorations of the Pacific, and they used a few of these islands, not just Guadaloupe, but Sedros Islands and islands off of Baja as these um nurseries for food. On the return trip, they would be returning lean and then they would be able to harvest these goats that had just been living, happy and fat on this island. Right, but the population exploded and they literally ate everything on the island to the point where the Mexican government came in and called most of these goats back. But like the redbreasted robin, or I think it's even there's an indigenous bird to that zone called the Guadaloupe robin, similar to our American redbreasted robin that almost went extinct. And and so that my take on it is that like a place was built to be a certain way, and the students, as soon as we start screwing with mother nature, we're done, Like there is absolutely no way to catch back up what I've seen. Let me give you a two point counter um in the case in New Zealand, so many of the things that were like so many of the native species were eradicated, you know, well driven to extinction or extirpated. Yeah, so you've already kind of got I think that that sort of provided a motivation to repopulate it. Right, So does that And I'm not saying that's the final word on it, but you have to like imagine, right, it's not like you're like supplementing an existing thing. You kind of have this place, like people want to this place where you expect, like a large land mask to have large mammals, and even though there weren't large mammals there, there was these like large birds there, and so people probably felt an absence, you know. Um, So there's that. A quick note on the how the whalers used to stock islands all over You care about the whalers that used to go and get they'd stop buying get giant tortoises in a variety of places like everywhere. Even people would stop into the say shells later and get giant tortoises off there, and they'd go to other areas and get them if they liked him, because you could flip them over. Yeah, put him in the hold of the boat, flipped over and it would stay alive for months. You wanna talk about humane slaughter practices? Oh my god. That The second counter is this, and this is an interesting perspective on non natives. Where the Hawaiian Islands weren't colonized until around eleven years ago, So seafaring Polynesians discovered kind of in a truer sense of the word being like the first people to discover discovered the Hawaiians years ago, and they introduced and that they quickly introduced uh, dogs, rats, probably accidentally pigs, okay in a wide array of edible fruits, so like Hawaii didn't have mango and papaya and pineapple and bread fruit. This is all stuff that was cultivated. Sure, So I was hunting in Molokai with some native Hawaiians and the Nature Conservancy was had recently bought up some large properties, and the Nature Conservancy was pushing an idea that they wanted to eradicate the wild pigs off of the land because they wanted to do a non native eradication. The the Hawaiians articulated a perspect to me that we're indigenous people. Were native people we've been here for however long we've been here. The entire time that we've been here, we've been here with pigs. How can I be native but the pig be non native? And they said, if we really wanted to get serious about eradicate non natives, I would be looking towards you folks rather than these pigs. So the point I mean, I think people get pretty used to like, people get pretty used to have and the animals around that they have into these boys in New Zealand who have been writing and it's a really insulting idea that you would that you would wipe out there resource. Again, man, I don't really know. I don't really know the answer. M It's like Texas yourself. Hey, I'm Danielle Pruitt, Okay, Tea, Yeah, I live in Texas, and it's sort of the same thing. There a lot of non natives. You want to eradicate some of that, but then again you have all these outfitters that profit off of it. So it's like that constant battle between the two ideas of what do you do with this problem we have? And then the people who are banking in on it, cashing in actually raised like keeping and trapping pigs and letting them go. It's it's a catch twenty two and yeah, the pigs and they get a bad rap because they you know there they can be destructive, right. But it's really it is different in this way than a rainbow trout and brown trout, because I don't know, there is some competition in the native rivers right with with the native fish generally, not like brown trout generally aren't causing trouble, No, not that we know of. I think that there they know that there is some competition in our rivers with native fish and the introduced trout. Right. But yeah, so you all send made a campaign to call out all rainbow and brown trout out of the Rocky Mountain States attack. But you know what, I would be in a position to be consistent if someone proposed that to be consistent, I don't know, man, I was gonna say, to be consistent, I would support it just to be just to be just to have just to be able to be to have the clarity. But you see at my point that one of the things that I believe is that there are moral and ethical compass needs to migrate and mature with it, needs to evolve with everything else and us because it it's it's kind of an easy thing for us to say, yeah, like let's bring it back to it's like original holistic way. I I struggled to believe that that is absolutely actually attainable in some scenarios. I don't believe. There you go. And so what it means though, is that we have to ship like it's a preparadigm shift. Needs to have me going to shift our perspective as to Okay, well what is the new normal? And you know, some of these things are here to stay? You know, how do we do how what is how do we continue to uh the stewards well getting the funk out of the way and just letting mother nature like coal also and figured out you know, Like a friend was talking to me about mountain lion hunting here in Montana last week and he was saying, you know what I want to do? He said, uh, he said, I think we need to shoot um female mountain lions right for what purpose? UM two? In his mind, it's part of UM game management, is pat He's watching all the So I'm living in southwest Montana where the predator population is robust and growing, right, grizzly bears, wolves, mountain lions, you name it. That being not even a debatable point. No, I want to clarify for people. It's just by the numbers, you know. And and so his point is like, hey, we need to And he was just talking about mountain lions and I'm just sharing a conversation that happened that he He's like, you know what my point of view is, uh, is I wanna I want to harvest female mountain lions. Um eliminates the next generation just right off the bat. And if we have a few more toms out there, the tom's naturally will be culling their own kin to keep their own population down. That's what other nature has instilled in them to do, you know. And the practice fratricide. There you go. And so he's in his way. He was just saying like, I'm gonna mediate a little bit just to kind of let mother nature take back over a little bit. Which was interesting. I didn't have much to debate there. I was just listening to him saying, I hear you, you know, are you gonna eat it? What's my next question? You're gonna eat it? And he's one of those he's a little on the fence with you know, the things he does and doesn't eat for the wild. But um, I was like, well, funk it, give it to me, I'll eat it. You know. Yeah, it's pretty good. I've heard I heard taste like pig. I like it. I like it. None of this is what we're supposed to be talking about. Was every cool one the things we brought up so far. That was the perfect segue. I can't Yeah. Yeah, Edwarod just served it up. Man, do you mind taking it and run? And since I missed it? Yeah, speaking of eating mouth lions, Oh no, because I wanted to segue into the tongue. The tongue. Oh, so I gotta go back. I gotta go here. Here, check out this one. Here's a segway for you. Hey, remember when I was talking earlier about m hmm, yeah, well here's why that was. When I know it wasn't ninety six. We cooked tongue in ninety four first time. Um, I had moved away from home and was living with my brother Danny and our buddies Brian and Matt Drost, and we lived in a house. I remember my rent was on dollars a month. Um, But also a part of the house was actually falling away from the other part of the house where you could run an extension card from inside out without opening a door window, honestly, and like I remember, the shower leaks so bad and the landlord wouldn't come over there that we went and bought a gown of roofing tar and roofing tar at our shower, and roofing tar takes forever to dry in a shower, so you when you set your like you set your shampoo bottle down, get like roofing tier on it. So every ledge has a roofing tire ring on it because it just took months for that roofing tier to set up that kind of places. And we're in a lot of dear meat and we're in every part that we're just eating everything we could get our hands on. Yeah, we ate four year between the opening of bow season October one. We had four year between the opening of bow season the beginning of Christmas break, which started like December ten. And we always knew that people could eat tongues. I was telling Danielle about this yesterday and we would, uh, we just took Remember one night we were partying and took a dear tongue and just boiled the pot for a long time and just didn't like, couldn't get it figured out. I didn't know about the skin thing, right, did you guya get that? And we kind of decided we sort of put it on put that whole idea on ice for a long time. But I'll point out that it also took us many years to figure out what was up with beaver tails. That it took a long long time to be like, oh, so that's what they're talking about when they talk about beaver tails. It's all fat inside. It's like state grizzle inside there. I'm wondering if you could just render that somehow, you could render it on it, you could render it out for sure. Um, so there's that. So Daniel talk about how you cook up to your tongue, and then I want to I don't want to have the I want to do. I will talk about Well, we were talking about about this yesterday, and for people who who look at it as this terrifying alien looking thing, imagine that it's sort of like a little pot roast that is enclosed in a hard rubber case. So all you'd have to do no matter pretty much. I think any tongue recipe is always started the same way. Boiling, brazing and some sort of liquid too. Tender eyes cook the meat on the inside, and you're also separating the skin from the meat. And then when you plunge it in that ice bath, that cold water shocks meat, it contracts, and then you have a little bit of separation to help you peel it. And from that point you're you have like endless options. It's like a piece of meat. Um. I was thinking about doing some sort of pot roast. Cut it into big honks, added to carrots, potatoes, whatever, some stock and what. Just put it back in the oven for a while until all the vegetables are cooked, and it's it's like a pot roast. But I think there's a lot I have not tried that yet, a lot of ideas. I used to always tell people that it wasn't worth messing with any tongue up until you got into like elk. But I'm not realized that that's like not at all correct. Yeah, because that dear tongue we did yesterday, it's a rare rod. Dear tongue makes a lot of Yeah, it makes a really like a like a definitely like a meal for someone or an appetiser for six to eight people. Yeah, And I think that's a nice thing about if you've got one tongue and you want to have people over, have a dinner party and really share something different than most people have never experienced having that sliced up and seared. I think whatever you do after you after you raise it, having some sort of hard sear after, either on a grill or in a hot saute pan, adds up a lot of helps enhance that texture a little bit. Some coloration is really big, but because it can get kind of a weird look to it. Yeah, it's like that grayish color. And to me, that's sort of the first thing I see. I I always stay it all the time. You eat with your eyes first, you see a meal. If it looks like shit, you've got it in your head that you're not gonna like it. So I always find some way to add some sort of coloration to to that meat. So have you ever just cured him? No? I haven't, because when I first started getting better at preparing them, it was because I hung out with a buddy mine who's a chef and had like an actual restaurant, and he used to do a lot of he used to do a lot of tongue dishes in his restaurant. He was Jewish, so he's got you know, like a just like we're discussing this as well, like like Hispanic culture, Bosque culture. You know, there's a bunch of cultures around the world that like utilized tongue and have like tongue traditions. But then Jewish delis it's a it's a very common dish and like large Eastern cities of Jewish always have tongue sandwich. So he he came from it from that perspective, but was also very big into sharkoutrie. He would do he would take like a dozen veal tongues and do them all at once, and he would put him in a dry brine skin on and cure him with pink salt. So then when you then you raise him, pull the skin. Then he'd smoke them, but it would be that pink salt would turn it like a beautiful, beautiful red. Didn't you do that on A've done that? I remember seeing that. Yeah, So that's how he would conquer the color problem. And it also make it that when you know I think you should have to do first. It's just like really quickly walked through the steps of like just how you cooked, how you cooked your tongue yesterday? Yesterday's so we braised it. You braised it in a little pot. Probably that was that wasn't just water? Did you add stock? Okay? With stock? So I like to think that whatever you're braising it in imparts some flavor, So some sort of flavor. I would have just done water because I don't think it really matters. Probably did stop because I didn't want you to look down on me. Well, and I told you I never ever ever tell anybody to use like a bullion cube. I really just hate. The only time I would ever do that is because I have not yet tested side by side brazen water brasen stock. If that meat peel it and you were to take a slice right then I haven't tested that yet. Yeah, because I don't know how much you can actually penetrate, like flavor the meat the way you normally would flavor meat in stock with the Yeah, but I knew you were gonna season it, and I knew you were going to make you were going to make an accompaniment. Yeah, Yeah, I think if you're like, yeah, if you were just gonna be like no, I'm just gonna boil it like in the old days, like they used to do on the great planes buffalo, cut its tongue out, boil it, slice it up, eat it. Then I would want to boil it in a salted stock, right, But since you're gonna do all that other junk, I would have just done it water. But I didn't want you to come over my house and think that I was a shitty cook, so I put stock in there. I told you not to use your good stock, though I did say that, um yeah, and I think so you can braise it stove top, put a lid on it low. Uh. Pressure cookers are awesome tools to use. If you're man you got to be careful of pressure cookers. What do you mean because you can't monitor it? So I I am a fan of manual pressure cookers. You're what you're supposed to be doing. I'm sorry, Yeah, just marches through like bam, bam, bam. What did yesterday? Okay? Okay, So we braised the tongue until it was tender, and you could tell we stuck a fork like one of the spokes of the fort and you could tell that you could just sort of slide it under the skin, and you knew the meat was tender after about three and a half hours, so we pulled it out, gave it an ice bath, peeled it, which took a little bit of time. And you're kind of peeling and kind of using a pairing knee. Yeah, so you don't want to cut through the meat, and so I used a pairing knife. I think a sup for sharp filame knife that's really thin and flexible would also help, just to sort of kind of like getting silver scan who sharpened that knife? You sharpened it. It's very sharp because it always seems like what those tongues, man, you get like half of it that just comes right off and then the other there's just there's different like binding materials between the skin and the meat in different locations on that tongue, and there's there's kind in rich pound. Are you cool? You have said the thing all day? Well, I got a question. I do, because she's marching through the steps at the time. I do have a question. I'm glad you asked because I was trying to find my moment. But um, is it safe to say that like for the domestic chef and like people cooking at home that if you get a tongue, like the best thing to do is to just baseline, just braise it first and then creative you have to do. I wouldn't worry about dry Brian and ahead of time tim and all that, if you're just gonna do if you just want to be like, what's this all about? If you want to what's this about? I would make the thing that she's talking about. Yeah, that was really good because the chef buddy that does the dry brian, the peel, the smoking, that's some labor intensive ship. But the thing is he's doing a dozen of them and these are beef tongues bigger, so he's doing like he's making a day out of it, you know. Really there, then where are people? Where are people finding that Daniel's recipe? Oh? Good question. We gonna put it out in a video. O nice cool. I look forward to seeing that go on march through you good Chris. Yeah. But so if you got a tongue, like say you shout at your first dear, you cut the tongue out, You're like, oh, I'm gonna do something with this. You don't want to stick in the oven. You don't want to put it in a slow cooker. You want to braise it first, right, Well, slow cooker work fine. So you could do the same thing, same thing, covering liquid, covering liquid. You're good. Seth you ever cooking tongue? I have not, but I do have some the freezer. And it's like I look at him, just like, man, I don't I don't know what to do with that. Don't hang on. They last forever they do. That was my question, how long they last in the freezer? All humans will be dead as long as the freezer running somewhere. The tongue will be fine. Man, some future species will cook that tongue up. Uh okay, marches through Okay. So yeah, I start every process with the same braising it and then peel it. So it's it's a lot easier to peel if if you've if you've cooked it first and then being super patient. You don't want to try to cut the meat and this You don't want to like cut the meat thinking you're just gonna peel it that way. You want to like sort of wiggle that knife in between. I think the same way. You sort of start getting silver skin off of meat and then use your fingers and you can start to peel. Sometimes it doesn't work so easily, and then you just have to be patient. But so once I got it peeled, then the skin is like, don't worry. The skin is extremely obvious. There's no question about what it is you're trying to get on. Yeah, you're not like, is that meat? Is that skin? It's like that's you just that's It's also bumpy, it's hard, it's gross. So do you do you peel it? Because of like it's just tougher in hell. I mean, it's just fantastic. I would imagine, I don't know what we're a rubber. Yeah, you can try it. Let me know how we could have given you a whole handful of it. Yet I didn't know you were curious about that. I don't know if it was it was just like an appearance texture thing that I think the texture matters. So it's like at the very bit back of the tongue, there's like always at that hump. I don't know the correct term for that, but there's always Once you peel like those big taste buds off, there's still like some raised bumps so I'm that textual things like that really bother me. So I take that pairing knife and shave it kind of like you'd shave your face, so it's smooth, so you don't have any like bumpy textures you shave your face. That if I had ever shaved my face, that's what I would imagine that speaking to a group of guys saying, yeah, there, tongues all peeled up, You got the little bumpies spies off, Yeah, and then slice it. If I could slice it as super super thin, I would have maybe wrapped in plastic grab put it in the freezer time willing, and that sort of hardened it up, and then you can really get nice thin slices. But when it's sort of just fresh out of that ice bath, it's still a really firm texture. It's still really easy to cut through. So I sliced into about quarter inch eighth inch quarter in. They were they were thinner than that knife was sharp. They were about I don't think they're that then, but I'll take four sixte is a quarter inch where sounds good. Maybe even the hair less go ahead. So then I made a nice little spice mix that had some smoked paprika in it, so a really nice bright red color. So once you mix that in a season the meat with that rub, then you finally got a little red colored to that gray meat, which is man. And that's when you go from like this is a tongue, this is meat. It's like kind of hopping that that bridge that people need mentally to get over from that color. Once that hit, it was yeah, it was, it was ready, it was it was looking good. Yeah. So then the last step was hot saute pan, a little bit of oil see here on both sides. And I always use a little uh spatula to press it down because a lot of times meat that pressure they like to sort of dome up and then the circle doesn't get seared, only the ring on the outside edge. So I was flatten it down one by one, flip it over, do it to the other side, and you're done. And it was you he drizzled it with something, Jimmy. True. This is a good high grade. This is advanced wild game cooking. Real good. It was. It was really good. But it seems so simple, like advanced but simple. Ye. People like if you're at home, you're like you're not like looking at a hundred steps. It's like, oh, it's that easy. Praise it, peel it, slice it, sere it toda. Chris, what made it um advanced in your mind versus simple? What about the complete tongue recipe? I think the one like knowing like what to do, like like the presentation because of the gray color, like being like, oh, we need to add some spice to this one for flavor, and two to make it like appetizing to look at. And then two like knowing things like the doming and like flattening. Like that's a little more advanced, like I wouldn't know how to do that, but simple in the way that like I'm not a good cook, but watching that, watching you cook the whole thing, it was like, oh, I could probably do that if I had like a walkthrough. You'd set Chris's baseline by having you share your famous gray rabbit recipe, and that would that would give everybody a good sign of where Chris is coming from his culinary experience. Yeah, I cook some gray rabbit. It wasn't good. It was gray and species nor understands the story, dude, I don't really even understand. It's not just me. It was a cotton tail rabbit. It's a it's swamp rabbit, same as a cotton tail. Yeah, what's the STILTI silvel just aquaticus. It's a six pounds. It's a cotton tail that grows to five six pounds. It was a big and sounds like a nightmare. Yeah, dude, Yeah, but these are cool rabbits. Cool seeing all these rabbits. You know, normal contail just ships wherever he pleases. Swamp rabbit has a log. Oh yeah, I forgot about. They got like a defecation log where they got a little spot where they can presume it like they like to use it. Then get up and look around and get up out of the water. When it's wet. These rabbits will swim away from you. They'll jump. They'll jump in the in the Mississippi or the Ohio and swim across the river. That's amazing. And they'll live out in the marsh five and they got a little log where they like to go. It's like lamas. Lamas will have pick a spot and ship in the spot and make like a little hill and then they'll actually climb up on the hill. After many months of building it up, use it as a place to get a look around. It's pretty smart, pretty dog. That's like the ultimate ultimate recycling of materials. They're like, not only is it food, but it's also function closed loop man. So they have a defecation log. And Chris took some. It's very good, it's very good to eat. And he took some, and he sucks that cooking not socks of cooking, socks of cooking game. By your admission, i'd say sucks at cooking, flat out socks a cooking. Yeah, the game doesn't help because it just adds like another level of like trying to prepare the rabbit for a lady who he was, you know, trying to impress. It came out gray. No one was happy. He felt that he'd set he'd set everything back. Tell us the recipe, the procedure I forgot. I think it was a recipe in one of the in the small game, don't you dare. But here's where I messed up. Here's where I messed up. I think I think the taste wasn't wasn't bad. It was just the color. And I think the issue was like I just didn't brown it enough before, because I think it calls for browning and then you bake it right. Maybe, but anyways, the browning, and that's I think that was my fatal misstep was like as it was like I was just worried about burning it the whole time. And that's the perfect segue because that's exactly what Danielle was just talking about, was like making food apptized into the eyes. You didn't pull that was rule number one. And then nobody was like, I wish I would have been there for this meal. Man, it would have been yeah, a fly on the wall or more like Steve or more like Chris's chef that was there. Fly on the wall, Fly on the wall. Moving on. You couldn't like we'd beat yep about this book because we don't know what happened. The reason I'm moving on, there's there's no lesson. There's no lesson. Like if I was there, if someone would have been there, I would have said, like, that's actually looks great, it's not a problem or whatever. Did it look bad or did it also taste? No, it tasted. I mean it wasn't like probably amazing, but it was it was edible for sure. Flavor was good. Flavor was there, it was it tender, it was a little it was. It was not as tender as I had hoped it could have gone for not thirty minutes. The tenderness was yeah, that was a little bit of an issue. And then the gray, the color was the worst part. That was a daughter, do you mind? Um, can you jump in and give some perspective on tongue, because I'm guessing that you didn't discover tongue when you were twenty. Um, well no, I I actually discovered tongue and I was eighteen. Oh yeah, not only because I was in culinary school. So that's how you found out about it. Yeah, So it wasn't from like like, it wasn't like a family thing from having families from Mexico. Well it could of Mexico. No, no, no, you're you're You're right on many levels except for um my, um, it could have had tongue really from my my mom's side, which is Russian Jewish from the East coast New Yorker, so that easily could have brought tongue into our life. But and from my dad's the Latino edge. But um no, I was raised sort of in a in sort of more of a natural culture. I was raised on like tofu and miso soup, and not a lot of game, not a lot of wild um, not a lot of proteins like meat based proteins. Yeah, more vegetarian macrobatic cooking, which is whole whole plant cooking. Um. Fish was expensive. So trout. Yeah, if the twin and I twin brow and I caught trout, we eat out. Um. And I guess when I was looking my teens who started hunting, so we're like, Mom, we're eating game, you know, brought like a deer leg home. Um. But so tongue for me cooking school, um was the intro to methodology and through methodology. UM. When when we talk about cooking, methodology required a diverse range of of muscle cuts that require different cooking methods in order to have a tender brown not gray rabbit, etcetera. You know. So my take on tongue was that was my first experience it, and then traveling through traveling around the world, you see it on all kinds of menus. It's really the US has one of the most limited animal based protein availability kind of you know, like available options out there. You go to Europe and they're eating turkey every single day, not just on Thanksgiving, Well that's our holiday, but you know, not just in the fall. So I've seen in cooked tongue a bit um and and I you know, I think it's it's it is interesting, especially um, I mean, heck, you have a I think you have a recipe out there for like duck tongues. You cooked duck tongues before. Really people are cooking duck tongue. I mean that's that's a bite I've been I've been served it, but I haven't. Yeah, so tongue. This is how So here's my thing on Well, I can't let duck tongues go like for real, it's like a crispy duck tongue. It's popular in Asian cultures. It was more like walk fried and then tossing the sauce kind of a thing. So imagine eating like a popcorn shrimp. Maybe not as tender, but there's gonna be a little chew in there. Are they peeling those two? I don't think so I haven't prepared him. Interesting, We're gonna be trying well, counting seasons coming up, so I'll sign up right now for that trip. I'll be fine. Um, well, we'll just like just pull a bunch of dog. There's a handle like there's a handle that I'm always I got like a running list of should I want to mess with to have a mess with you? And so you know, have you ever been to like a dim sum place and eating the geled chicken feet? You know? Yeah? Like you know I haven't. You know, I want to get around to replicating that with turkey feet grows. Feet feet are great. So feet we're bouncing around a little bit. But the best foot rest chicken for the recipe I ever had was made by a Jamaican lady and she would use the feet. It's what I do now. I make all of my chicken stock out of chicken feet. So it's because it's loaded with all of the tendons you raise up chickens. I raised chickens, not enough to call butcher myself. I just buy pounds of frozen chicken feet from the butcher or grocery store. And the reason I use those for chicken stock is because um per you know, like per square pound, I guess or however you wanna um you know, like equate that a foot has the most connective tissue and ligaments and cartilage and joint matter which is packed with collagen, and collagen when cooked down, turns into gelatin, which creates your beautiful viscous broths and stocks that have mouth feel and stuff. So pound per pound and pound and dollar per pound. It's like the most economical way to have the best tasting stocks out there is go for the shins, the hooves, the um, the feet, the tail. Right, if you're hunting animal with tail, I know you're worried about how far off track you are, and I know where I know where you need to wind up. Can I throw another thing in to ask if you have any familiarity, um you're from with birds nest soup? Yes, okay. So there's a type of swallow, a cliff dwelling swallow. I'm not talking to you, I'm talking to the listener. There's a cliff dwelling swallow that produces a spit that has a glue like quality to it, and they take nesting materials coated with this spit and then build their nest and birds nest soup it's the thing that people do to you. Basically, take this thing and simmer it and extract that viscous liquid from it, and it's used to make like a somewhat viscous consumme a. I took cliff swallow, you know, the mud ones, the mud nests that you see here under bridges and stuff. I took a bunch of those and bashed them up and boiled them for a long time, and then let the dirt settle and strained it off and reduce that down. And I could never find what I was after, Like, I could never get like that. Yeah spit, Yeah, that viscous spit. Different types of swallow. Yeah, but go on, um tongues, So yeah, tongues. What do we we're talking about? Sort of what's my take or what's my I think it's a muscle worth eating. I think it's uh, I think it's just it's it's ridiculous. If you look at the commercial industry. Um, you know that the commercial industry waste very little because everything's got value to it. You know, I messed I messed you up. That's not where you were? Where was that feet? Oh? Well, could you do a turkey footwork? Have you done with the wild turkey? No? I haven't reason, I don't know what I say. My geese feet for stock? Yeah? Clean? Yeah, Canada's um so their feet are pretty nasty, so I always wash them clean potatoes, scrubber, scrub them off, and then I blanch in boiling water in case there's anything bacterial wise on it, because you don't want all that inside of your stock. So yeah, I blanched them, scrub them, and then um knife start to break them out the joints to sort of open them up, and then I throw them in the stock. No ship there you go. Every almost every part of the animal I mean, could be simmered down to a flavored broth. There's no reason why not to, you know. Yeah. On tongues, um, yeah. So for tongue, for me, it's I enjoy it a few different ways. The way Danielle's recipe shares, which is slow cooked until it's tender, peeled and then browned off. Right, If I do, I have that right and seasoned. Um. I like it that way. I also like it more as a deli meat as well, So slow cooked until tender peeled and then left whole. And and so I'll cook a tongue, peel it back, and then once it's at that tender place, I'll just refreeze it a again and just label it cooked tongue, and at that point it's ready for kind of an array of possibilities. You could your tongues too, or just bigger ones, but I usually just mess with the bigger ones as of yet, I have a very limited time in my day to day and and the r O I comment earlier, it's kind of bang for your buck, like an elk tongue or a cow tongue. Um just has more bang for your buck. I'll go down they harvest bison on the park line here in southwest Montana as part of a indigenous hunting opportunity for native tribes from the Pacific Northwest to come in and hunt bison that are coming out of Yellowstone Park. And all often go down during that time of year and pick up heart and um kidney and call fat and tongue if they don't want them, because I mean, that's major bang for your buck. Freaming he well, you know, um but so so so I'll keep a cold, a cooked tongue in the freezer and at that point I'll thought out and slack it and uh and then just slice it. Course, slack it means is a restaurant term when you pull something out of the freezer and let it thought slowly, Right, so you would pull something and put it on the tray and throw it in the fridge for a couple of days and let it slack or thaw out and or put it on your counter. Um. I always felt like when you dump a frozen something because you're stressed and hustling, you don't have time, and you dump it in warm water, you're you're almost like stressing more water and moisture out of the meat, and you end up you end up with a lot more coming out of it than when you just let it naturally thaw on its own at room temp. Um. But so when the tongue is then thought, I'll just cut it like just quarter inch, just like you would have steak sandwich, and I'll throw it on a bagel with a arugular or sprouts and onion and good mustard and mayo and what and just make a sandwich out of it. Now. Oh yeah, it's amazing and uh and and it's interesting. Right, So I have this thought a lot, is that how often are folks eating meat without seasonings, without salt, without any herbs, without anything but the meat just like and know, like that's what rabbit tastes like, that's what antelope tastes like. That's what rarely right, and so oftentimes we're eating a combination of It's like seeing something naked for the first time, you know, seeing to eat meat. You know what I'm saying. It's like you look like you know, but to eat something without any of the dressings, and it's it's a never, yeah, never, And you should do it because then it starts the fundamental process of of the education of well, that's what it tastes like. Ok Now, is a little bit of salt. But if I really barely, like what's this like, I still put a little bit of salt on it. But you're right, you should strip it down. Well. Boiled pasta, just for the easiest test, just boiled pasta in naked water and boiled pasta in salted water, and you're sounds so much that you're tasting the salt if it's see if it's salted appropriately is salt dehydrates, So salt pulls out natural flavors in the form of dehydration. It's pulling out moisture from anything. You put salt on an apple, it's gonna you're gonna see liquid come up, and that's natural, that's the moisture that's within that organic matter, right, And so salt thing is kind of fundamental to pulling natural flavor. You can over salt and that's a bad deal too. Um. So, So that's one way I like to cold slice a tongue. And then another one that I want to mess with more is um is slow cooking it till it's tender and um and then slicing it and then frying it so you're still trying to brown it. But I'll just I'll shallow fry it in a cast iron full of ward, right, and maybe dredged a little bit too, so that that's put Take that cold sliced tongue, season it with some salt and pepper, if you will, flour, and then fry it. And now all of a sudden you have this crispy little like chicken fried steak thing happening. And that's pretty sweet. Yeah. I want I've been wanting to do the same thing because then it for me, it reminds me of calamari almost. Yeah. Yeah, tech soft texture, crisp, we exter exterior. Have you ever sue vied tongue? I haven't haven't either. No, i I'm currently personal like personal like headbutting match within my own mind between Suvie versus No Suvie and the love hate kind of going on. And explain that, explain, give me the give me the argument against each well, if anyone out there does or does not, if you do not know what suvie cookery is, suvie cookery is basically in French, I think it translates to cooked in vacuum, and it's basically you are taking anything, putting it in a plastic bag of some kind, moving all the air out ziplock back seal bag exactly and then uh and then submerging that bag in water bath and using an immersion wand a heated wand to then circulate and maintain a temperature of of of within the water, which then brings that food in the bag to that temperature and holds it at that temperature. Just like you're doing a great job right now. I feel we should just have you on hand just now and an to do an explanation of something. I don't know what suvied was. That was super educational. It's been around it's like the seventies yea, And yet it's just like GPS. I always here and then when people are like suvied, I'm like, oh yeah, I always thought that was something like so new. Well, but it's new to us. So GPS is not new to the world. But it's like so many things that require um development and R and D. There's a ton of time and energy and money it goes in. So it's usually developed for the industry and then it comes down to the consumer. Yeah, I think it's already Like when was the life cycle in like New York restaurants of Suvie, Well, they didn't, they didn't quit. It was that was it was. That's where it found its use. That's where it found its thing is you could you could if you're a caterer, say, or you're doing a wedding and you need to have at six o'clock, you're gonna serve one hundred four steaks, okay, it would be that you would have this giant tank with a circulator in there and all those sons of bits and steaks are in there at one degrees yes, and they're just ready to go, and then you pull them out, put a sea on them, put a flame on him, and wham. The door at the same time, or you could pre prep all these entrees and have them already and you and you start serving dinner at five, and you're serving dinner until one in the morning in a bistro, and all this ship is just like done, it's done. The order comes in, you grab the bag out, open the bag up, put a sea on it. It's fucking scallops whatever, put a sea on them. Out the door. And you're just basically grabbing sacks out of a hot tank of water, putting the finish and touches on it, dressed a dish, go out the door. But wouldn't you agree also, And it's not it's not like they quit doing that because it got hip. They're still doing it, right. But I think that there was a hip nous at one point to it where people were like, I am going to find a sou vied steak filet or whatever because it is special when it was on the menu listed, like, rather me into some secret trick that would be off putting the people. Everyone remember when Kale was all over the menu, It's like, not Kale's not sucking new to anywhere, because like someone started busting Kale's balls because it's got like what's wrong with kale? Everybody got hip on kale, and then it came out that everybody started busting balls on kale because Kale has some problem. So there's I have no problem with Kale. But when it comes to Stuvie cookery, it was developed in the late seventies early eighties and went through the industrial use and and then just I think it hit the restaurant scene like in the later later nine like late late nineties, and then two thousand's and then consumers. I think I didn't start seeing a purchasable you go to Amazon and buy a wand, which is what they're called an immersion wand and um. Yeah, like Brevel Rebel has the Jewel, the a Nova, that's when I have and you can control them with an app on your phone. So it's just a continuation of these these these tools like GPS and hunting now and and on X on our phone and everything else, like these things that enable us to just continue to be badass at what we want to do in our world. But my thing with Suvied is, yes, you could take the toughest cut of meat. And I've been doing more and more of this where I will literally so I some people wrap in plastic wrap and then butcher paper if you're butchering at home. I really stick to the vacuum sealed you know, almost everything. Um. I just feel that you if you can freeze it for longer. And and what I've started to do is I'll thaw the item in the bag and I'll go directly into the suvie machine once it's thawed, so rather than you can't throw it in FROs and but you better account for that because it takes a lot longer. Um. But so here's the deal, is that you can suvie a tough cut like we'll just call it like a deer shank and um, and then pull it out twenty hours later at a hundred and seventy degrees and it's falling apart tender now. But there is no caramelization of sugars, which is when you have a steak, or when you have a crispy fried egg, or when you have a brule aid creme brule. The the the the cooking of sugar to the point where it's about to turn into candy or burn is caramelization. And it's a beautiful thing like it's it's like frying that tongue meat that Danielle is talking about. And so what happens is is when you're Suvie cooking, you're wet cooking and there's no uh, there's no none of the sugars are being developed to a point of caramel, and so you're just losing on a ton of flavor. And so the old school method pre Suvie, which is to make something so you're trying to make something tender, is you're brazen, which is you're browning it and then you're putting it in a water or stock bath of some kind. You're putting it with liquid and aromatics like carrots and onions and garlic, and then you're slow cooking, so you're doing the same thing Suvie's doing, but you're browning at first, and all that browning is going into the brazen liquid, which then can become a beautiful gravy your sauce. Right. So that's where my love hate comes in, is like with Suvie, it's it's like you can put flavorings in the bag and then seal it up, and so it's I I love it, but at the same time, sometimes I don't want to let a ship. Like I could cook a deer shank right now. What time is it, It's like ten thirty. I could cook a deer shank right now through traditional brazing brown itt liquid in the ovenrees six hours and it will be ready for dinner at six pm, like falling off the bone in the gravy in that pan is ready to go. I'll have to do is mashed potatoes. Right. So I'll counter that by saying I'll see it before like a roast. Sometimes I'll see it in a pan, put it in the bag. I'll put just a little bit of sock on the pan to sort of wipe up that fond poured in the bag. The fond you've got your own word. I noticed it on the glossary term scraping. Fun. Fond is another word for scrapings. Scrapings. Yeah, fond is the fancy culinary term. Dude, How do I not know so much stuff you read es? I get it, I get it. I just have never heard it described as fond. I mean it doesn't take the same root as fondue. No, obviously, no, never the word fun. At least, I admit it. A lot of dudes to say here going like uh huh uh huh, but I'm like never heard that. Well through your admittance, now everyone knows what fun. Yeah, so I'll do that. Um, and then a lot of juices still extract from that meat, and you have like a little bit, maybe like half a cup of really nice juices in there. But I agree on something like a shank you miss out on like really building a flavorful braise liquid. So for something like also Buco or anything like that, I would probably always brace it versus yeah, yeah, well and and so and really Okay, So I'm gonna distill my love hate down just to make it really clear. It's a time thing. So the recipe that I've known to come by if I want me to fall off the shank bone is roughly twenty hours at a hundred and seventy degrees fahrenheit. That's just what it takes. That's a long time for suvie or for whereas and you just have to plan ahead, do you just do right? But I don't always have the luxury planning ahead. So for me, six hours old school style in the oven, out of the oven, one pot, one pan. It's really just as simple. It just takes less time and you do end up with like a court or a substantial amount of gravy that's pretty beautiful. So they're both great technic. Can's kind of throw Then I'm gonna ask you another question. Let's go. I'm throwing one more thought in here. I think that when an argument in favor of doing say a sabuco suvied is that you don't need to be there to monitor it, and the window of it being done is a much broader window. Right, Yeah, it's it's like very safe to like leave your home leave this thing in there. You like, yeah, it'll be done maybe around six pm in this case, but six pm tomorrow, but you know, ten pm it will be kind of the same way. So I would argue that, and it was doesn't know not argue. I'm just gonna add to that. These are all great options for anybody listening to get into. Right, um is a crock pot, you know crock pots electrical. It's super bomber and safe. It's no different than putting it in the oven. And in a way, yeah, with the lid on it, it's self basting, meaning you're evaporating the broth and up to the lid and it's falling back down onto the meat. And that's I mean, people win home cooks that are busier than I am when every day with a crock pot like great invention. Somehow, though, I feel like if I do the same exact recipe, let's just say a sibuco, yeah, in a crock pot and then the Dutch oven with the lid in the oven, I feel like I get a different result. Right, I think the oven is a little bit better, and I think that it's somehow there's like a different kind of reduction going on, Like maybe the the way the lid you peeled off and you got like a something that tastes really good stuck to the lid of your Dutch oven. Yeah, that isn't there on a crock pot. I think it has to do with its dry heat versus wet heat. When you're in a crock pot, it's a steam based environment again, and when you're in an oven, the exterior of that crock pot is all dry heat. It's just it's a different It's um it's like you know, being warmed by the sun being versus being warmed by a sauna. So just it's different. I was gonna say, would fireplace versus sauna? Good? Now, Yeah, let me ask you another question. They're gonna ask Daniel another question. Here's my question for you. If you're living out of a freezer, like eating out of a freezer all the time. You were talking earlier about pulling it, like pulling the tongue out and let it just going into the fridge and let it take its time. How do you like the thought fish out of your freezer countertop, room temperature? What about you? I do that I do in my fridge, I do in uh back bag in cold water depending. I just didn't know if there was like because you having a lot of like technical training. Yeah, it's sort of like where you where you have this, you know you have like what works. Then there's also like food safety issues and all that kind of ship from commercial kitchens. I don't know if you had a different perspective on thong fish, if you had like never you can't ever set it on your counter, No you can. I mean the only thing I would say is size matters here. So if you are thawing out some huge piece of fish, like large larger than a turkey, like the belly off a sixty pound flat fifty pound flathood. Okay, Well, so the only caution here is that at that point I would thaw in the fridge and I would give it four days. And the only reason why is so it's a controlled environment where the extremities of that piece of meat are are never reaching an ambient room Tampa fifty or sixty while the inside is still frozen and you're waiting for that to happen, whereas it's always going to be at the outside is thirty something or forty forty, whatever your fridge is at as it slacks. That's a good point because you pull like, like, let's say, your thawing out of venison neck. Oh, I'll take forever some bitches sitting on your counter, sitting in like a pool of its own blood. Yeah, it's all just looks like all sad and warm. Then you get in there and still like still icy in the middle fridge. Yeah, yeah, totally. Guys. Um, do you guys want to talk about kidneys or hearts? First? Game kidneys or game hearts first? I have actually never cooked game well any kidney, let's talk about game hearts. I haven't either. I'd liked if anybody has some experience with you. I mean maybe in a scrambles. No, I was gonna say like in um oh, shoot, was it called giblets, giblets giblets? Yeah, I made kidney pudding with elk. Kidney tastes like piss. I messed it up. I didn't do it right. But when I do kidneys, I just cube him up. I know you've had this with me. Did you do it on their fognack out kidney with the kidney there? Yeah? Yeah, but that was like, no, I know, but I'm saying like, okay, sure, so yes, I have ingested it. But as we were eating, as we were eating that dish, I was like, oh, that's a kidney tastes like like very heavily seasoned with a bunch of other cuts in. Okay, yeah, do I walk around eating a kidney like an apple? But do I have you had it the way most people have it, where you peel the skin, you're supposed to give it a good soak, cube it up and put it in like an egg scramble. Put it in an Oregon scramble with mo foulon with MO make the camera bleed foulon. We even had kidney lung heart that was out of pre Were you working Were you working for us when we filmed in New Zealand? Nope? Oh all right. Were you working for us when we filmed up on the Brakes? Nope, you weren't. I was part time, but I had other commitments that fall guiding, and so that was one of the trips that I I I've never cooked game kidney, and I have a collection of them in the freezer right now that I've been wanting to do a steak and kidney pie. Just pop pies like a big Dutch of and pop peye. I think that'd be good. I think the thing with kidneys, if you look historically, it's um, it's oregan meat, and it's one of those things that it is protein. However, I'm certain they realize that it's you know, to just cook it medium are and slice it like a steak is like, yeah, it tastes okay. However, when it's dressed properly with a sauce and accompanying things, darn palatable and um. And sometimes I think, you know, you can look historically at recipes and be like, oh, they've been doing that for a long time. That's why it succeeds so that I have an interest in doing kidney pie for sure. Kidney. In my opinion, kidney falls into the trifecta of wild game ingredients that need to come from young critters. M M. It's like anybody who ever had sweetbreads. Anybody's eating sweetbreads in a restaurant, like a sweetbreads a thamus gland, it is delectable, it is phenomenal off veal. So like a six month old cow to get slaughtered, the thamus gland or the sweetbread is beautiful. As the animal gets older, it turns the gland matures into this kind of waxy thing that no one eats. I can't remember which planes tribe. Maybe it's the black Feet. I had a belief that um or at least here's the way euro Americans who spent time among them, captured what they took to be their belief. I always want to clarify that nowadays that at a time buffalo hunted and eight humans, and then humans got the bow and turned the tides and began hunting buffalo and eating them, and that the thymus gland was a chunk of human meat still stuck in the buffalo's throat. Again, this is as explained by by a Euro American traveler who traveled and hunted among them, So he could have got it all wrong, but that was his take on what was going on. One missed word could have totally you know what I'm saying. Yeah, because you hear last then you're like, now that you understand kind of like who how these things passed along? You realize that ship gets missed. But that was his take on it. Um. However, it turns the wax later, like I've tried to pull thamas glands out of game animals and it's just nothing. Like you know, I've peeled sweetbreads out of eld It's nothing. They're not the same. I think the other two components would be liver on old. Like you take a liver of a four year old white tail, it is not the same thing. All Yeah, the deliver out of a fawn of the year, and kidneys don't improve with age, So that I have a cat throw question. And on top of this, yeah, okay, age of what you're harvesting and eating. What's everyone's opinion on eating baby animals versus full grown animals. I think that the big I used to be like, you know, people used to say this all the time, like, oh, the big ones don't taste good. Dude, I'm telling you, there is nothing on this planet that is better than a big, big mealed your bucks that when you pull their highe they got like an inch of fat on their back. Is that the the answer you're you're getting you're wanting to get out, are you? Or is it more of the killing a young animal versus an old animal? All of it? I mean, there's six of us here. I mean, so I'm with Steve. One of my favorite recipes that my dad used to make, he would ask me to go harvest an old mule deer buck because he we knew it have huge fat on it and he wanted that as part of the thickening agent for his sauce. But some folks, you know, like maybe look at a spotted Vaughan and they're like, I can't kill that, you know, So I just wonder what, you know, like anything, cross, I don't have any I don't like the morality of it, or the ethics of it, or the aesthetics of it. I don't give a shit either way, Like it doesn't matter to me. At all. Yeah, it doesn't matter to me. I always grew up as far as like eating old versus young, I always grew up with people like I grew up a lot of meat hunters, UM in Pennsylvania, meat hunters. Yeah, And I always they always said, like old bucks are just nasty. Yeah, growing up, I had that in my head. But like people put it in your head. Yeah, you shoot a little buck like that's a good eater. Yeah. But you know, as i've you know, got more into like cooking my own ship, I've never noticed the difference. I mean I've noticed with mule deer. I don't know what the reasoning is, um, but like last year, UM, I had four different mule deer in my freezer, and I made the mistake of not labeling which deer was. And some of those deer just tougher in hell, had like a like a real like irony taste to it. I don't know, it's because I handled it wrong. And then other deer were they were they crippled up, limping around for four days before you found him. No, um, an other other mule deer were just phenomenal. Yeah, we did not last year, two years ago, we did a pepsi challenge. We had a year and a half old buck and probably what a three year old buck, maybe three or four year old buck eating the subitch raw. So it's like back legs. Now, granted one had been aged for a few day a's and one wasn't, So that's substantial, but it substantio because one was literally in rigor mortis. But throws off the challenge. It throws off the challenge, but it also informs the challenge, okay, because everyone thought the big buck was better just eating it as carpaccio. So even though they weren't totally equal and it wouldn't hold up the scientific rigor the test, it does say that handling. It suggests it might suggest to one that handling actually trumps age of animal. Here, I have a question you cool that you're honestly, I totally agree with that UM. Last year, one of the like we always have a big deer camp every year. One of the UM one of the deer that was shot was it was like next shot dropped immediately and we immediately went over there and started working on it. And like as we're cutting, some of the muscle groups are like still twitching and stuff. Do you think that causes any problems as far as like taste toughness, I can't say you mean in regards to not waiting until the nerves have kind of run the settled down to cut it. I don't know that's a People talk about that all the time as if it's like life and death, like don't don't mess with it until that time has passed. But think about how many people shoot a deer and the temperatures are in the seventies. You can't wait around. It's imperative to get that cooled off as fast as possible. But there's like post processing things you can do, like eight wet aging a dry aging um like you were saying, I think that trumps that, like the age of the animal, like how you take care of it in the field and at home is makes a bigger difference than it does how old he shot. Except when it comes to waterfowl, I think I think waterfowl is totally different. I think a young bird is going to be insanely tender and an old bird it's just not Yes, okay, we're getting a lot of ideas stacked on top of you. No, no, no, no, I want to get to this and I want I was hoping to talk about hearts, but now we'll get this more important stuff coming up. We're getting a lot of ideas stacked. I want to put two to bed, getting to the heart of it. Yeah, I wanna put two things bed. One. When I was talking about thamus, glands, kidneys and livers, it's better on young animals. And this is something that's always been widely accepted in cuisine, is that those organs, for whatever, like as they live out their life of filtering or the animal matures or something, they just change the texture on the changes, the flavor them changes. And it's to the point where in the commercial industry it's a difference between going to market and going to a rendering plant. Not that they know everything, they get everything right, but these are like broadly accepted. And the red in the horned and antlered game world, I think that there's a tremendous amount of mystery. I think that there's one huge variabilities between the animals life histories. This is the point I make in our new Wild Game cookbook they have coming out. It's like not all things are equal as far as as far as you know. Some coming at you through the woods. He might have spent three days hung up on a barbedware fence with Kyle's chewing on him, and then he finally gets himself off there, and then he comes through the woods and you shoot him. And that's his life history that you'll never know. And there's a that makes a big difference. He might have been and sad. He might have winnered in some shitty spot and been starving to death all winner. You just there's so much variability with the animals that you just don't know, and you might get something that tastes off and blame yourself for it and puzzle over, oh if I had not hung it for a day, or had it hung it longer, Like you don't know. The beauty of not the beauty of something of the commercial meat processing industry is that they have got things standardized to a bizarre degree. It's like you have an animal of a known lineage. It's born, it's fed a certain diet. It hits eight hundred pounds, it goes on to a feed mixture of x percent corn and x percent this. It's treated with this. It gets to eleven pounds, it goes to slaughter. They all line up the exact same thing happens to every one of them. The exact same process time happens to every one of them. They go into a cooler for just about the exact same time, and it comes out, and it's like they're stamping them out like a car factory, and it's like they know the variability ship. They kind of know. It's not like, you know, it's not like, hey, let's let's let this one lay out in the sun for a while. Yeah, when you go to the store to buy beef, you know what you're getting and what it's gonna taste like, there's like no question about that. When you're hunting, you have no idea what you're coming home, what it's, what it's already been through. So I think that that's what leads to a lot of the mystery about oh this one time we had or whatever. I mean, my brother killed a bull elk on time. Nothing you did to that sun, bitch. It was hard to chew up. It was like any other bull. Elk come six point bull coming across the mountain by am, bull falls over dead. It's cold out do the same thing to do with every elk. He could never chew that sun bitch. I don't know what happened to it. Um not that that puts that thing to rest, because now we're entering the like really interesting territory where I think that like foul rabbits, squirrels, that's some age specific ship there. I think if you kill a contail rabbit, you can tear its ear, you can tear its ear like a piece of paper after it's dead. That's a young rabbit. It's just a different critter than old rabbit. And a pheasant that's two three years old ain't the same thing. You can't just you can't just take that thing in in a You can't just take that thing and throw it on it can when you're cleaning pheasant, you can tell the difference like a younger pheasant and an older pheasant. The way that meat comes off that bone is just totally different than like an old rose or you're like you're cutting it off off the breastplate, and a young one You're like, this is kind of just peeled off. You're like there's something wrong with that. It's just so yeah, And you could tell. But you can take the pheasants wings, stretch the pheasants wing off and see if all the primary feathers are. If all the primary feathers are the same length, it's an older bird, and I would braise that bird. I would slow cook that bird. If the primary feathers aren't, it's different. So how many folks we kind of getting to Chris and Yanna still though, I mean, I'm just still curious about you wanna talk about that gray rabbit? Like like we're hunting. We're all hunters at this table, and we're you know, so hunting is the super conscious act of setting your sight literally and figuratively on a one thing and then harvesting it hopefully. So like are you targeting age ever? You know's like with birds that must be crazy challenging. How the heck do you targeted bird? Wall? Its flying? I don't think you could get any small games? Well, yeah, I was. I mean, I think the only time I've done that is when I have a cow elk tag and I've gotten onto a herd and you can see who's like big mom a lead cow. Yeah, buddy, Jimmy Miller calls her Jenny long muzzle. You know she's got like muzzle on her and uh, you know she's usually leading the pack and then behind her you've got like the mediums, and then hopefully there's some calves around, you know, because you really need to see all of the sizes to to to make the call, because oftentimes, like the cow I killed last year, she's by herself with a bull young five point both to three years old, you know, and I'm like a perfect size medium. You want the mediums, you don't want Jenny longnose, what's her name, long muzzle. But yeah, so I shoot her, walk up to her and by you know, just a giant, you know, and she's been eating like with Steve, didn't think so I served something when we were in Missouri everything. I was like, bitch, you've been bitching about that alcohol year, the best thing I've had a long time. She just got just a little more outdented than uh. Then maybe, but then again, it could be like all these factors, right, coincidence and this, that and the other that we're just not you don't know what happened. But anyway, there's is running around out there. If you're in a hunt season, there's cows running around out there that are eight months old, and there's cows running out there that are twenty years old. So well, I'm pretty spoiled. I don't really have an opinion on it, but I'm spoiled because like whenever I eat gamey, it's always cooked by like everybody at this table, and everybody at the table side is a good cook. So like, whatever I'm eating, I'm stoked on it, you know. So I don't. I don't have enough experience in my own like culinary world to know like, oh, a young animal versus an older animal, or so let me ask you a question outside, Like we'll go conventional for a second. If you're buying groceries, are you buying mixed baby greens or whole heads of lettuce baby greens? Okay, there you go. So you like babies too, Yeah yeah, yeah, so that's you'll. So you're saying that you'll you'll select. Like let's say you're hunting deer and you got a Schmoorgus board of mountain front of you. Yeah, you shoot for young. I'll do both. So I I try to pull, um, I try to pull tags for my area that um, if I can get some surplus tags or get a few b tags, um, I will I'll try to go for a young Like let's call it max three year old male of any species, because I think it has higher weight, you know, so I'm gonna be bringing more meat to the freezer from home. That's that's that's an important and it's it's probably the only sure way in the big game world that I know of to tell an age. Is a raghorn or a forked horn or something along, you know, like you know by its antler size, how old it is. Whereas that cow at three yards, that cow welk, you really don't know if it's going to be Jenny the long muzzle or you know, Jenny the short muscle. And so I try to go with that my A tag every year, and then with a B tag, I will so that's my meat that's bringing home some weight, is like a forked torn a rag torn. And then with the B tag, I target um. I you white tailor muled or dough TEGs. We don't get a lot where I'm at, but white tail, I'll target small like first year, second year animals, and that specifically for a whole leg cooking and and just tender, tender meat and even the organ meats that are terrific um when young. So you're shooting for the freezer. Yeah, and then it brings it to the next level, whereas I'm like, well, how do I kill this? If I do a hart shot, it ruins a lot of good stuff in there. If I do a like an upper base of the skull shot, then it's less but you have a higher risk of missing. So it's it's a combination of when I'm going for the younger animals the harvest, it's I don't know anyone else I hit that all the time. I'm like, all right, I try to put myself in a place where I know that I can make a like upper neck shot and not lose a shoulder because it steps right when I shoot, or that sucks for me when I end up losing a ton of meat through is uh copper bullets and just punch them in the shoulder. Yeah, because I feel like, just like you're just not you're not getting that crazy purple trauma. You still with you, but you still get meat loss. You know, I've switched. I've switched. You can't get go without it, But I feel like you're still like it's still a shot where you can just drop them in their tracks, but go over there and cut out, you know, A couple of inches versus sometimes looking at like stuff that extends out like a foot on either side of the bullet hole. But a doorto. You still shoot big, huge, giant bulls, maybe three in my life, and you don't think of those as being fundamentally different. Right, they're different, but you know, you don't look down on them. Meat tastes great, everything else. But I you know, I know that with like a two year old bull, that loin or backstrap is just totally different than a six year old bull. I think so six year old bull backstrap. The way I like to cook it is, I'm tender rising the heck out of it with like the heel of a knife or fork or whatnot, almost like um what they call that, like a Swiss steak or something. Or they're kind of breaking all that connective tissue with like a cutter or something or a pounder. So so let me ask you this, and you gotta be you gotta be honest in your answer. Okay, you've you've gotten some big smoker bulls, but you're saying, like generally if you had a big tanker, now let's not say like a big tankary, like holy she I'll never see one like that again the rest of my life. But like a nice six and a raghorn. Typically you're saying you would shoot the rag horn. Yeah, unless it's like over a three seven, unless it's like holy sh it, Yeah, totally. I'd rather pick up their sheds and you got a pile of them. I'd rather pick up their sheds because then you can like it's like the gift that keeps on giving. Yeah, I've I've I've shed a tear before when like we did, not that I would have said no, but my um my brother in law shot a bull and I know, I was like, I do I recognize that like something in me at however many hundred yards you were away, recognize that bowl somehow, like the face and then the colorings and not maybe even the aunt was a little bit. And then we walked up to it. It was like I was the first one there and I just without without even a shadow of dolls like I know that bowl, I have his sheds. I was like, fuck, never gonna get you know, pick up those sheds again. Um but yeah, you know, I uh my joy with antler hunting, big antler hunting. I love getting first time like people folks that are have never um you know, gone out and got a King of the Woods, you know, to put on their wall or whatever they want. I'm all about that. It's a beautiful thing and I love taking folks out for that. Um yeah, big time. Okay, Uh daniel O Ki walks through your heart recipe do your heart? I just did. I want to. I want to leave people with a with a good If you want to leave people with that, then I want to bring up one more thing about this. We're talking about waterfowl, and uh, please go ahead, because our buddy Boomer Hesley wrote in and I think I mentioned this to you about how we're always talking about meatcare four big game in the field, but rarely is that ever brought up for small game upland waterfowl. And he's saying like, yeah, Montana, you shoot a bird today, probably pretty chilled out in thirty minutes, right, even with all the feathers and on it whatnot. But if it's a sixties seventy degree day down south and you're not gutting immediately because you're spending three or four hours in the duck blind, like, how is that changing the meat? You know? How is that changing flavors. You know that you got going on in there, you're asking me, Yeah, I'm just kind of throwing that out there because it's just it's something that I feel like like we're hammering on it with about like getting guts out and hanging big game, this, that and the other, and it's just not not nearly discussed as much with I got a few based I got a few basic thoughts on it, but again, because it's wild game, I can't like come and tell you absolutely. Uh. I think they're not nearly as vulnerable to spoilage as our mammals. Large mammals, large mammals, they're so big and there's so much heat in there, and they got that gut, right that is depending on you know, what it was up to. They got that gut that's just full of gallons of stuff that's like ruminating in their gut and producing gas. Right, it's just different. I think they're not nearly as vulnerable to spoilage. And I think there's something about the chest cavity on a bird that's sort of you can have one thing going on inside the gut cavity and it's not it's readily permeating it's surroundings because of the breastbone, and that you're not really eating the meat out of the inside of the back. So if you leave a big game animal un gutted for too long, you wind up losing all the organ meat, the inside tenderloins spoiled very quickly. The you have spoilage, it starts at the ball joints in the rear legs and seems to spread very quickly. I just don't see it like moving around like a rot doesn't move around a bird in this sort of like cancerous way that rot moves around a big animal. But if you like to eat the gizzards in the liver and the hearts, which are all worth a try, I think that you need to get them out of there in a hurry. And also there's a thing to do with just like how pleasant the cleaning processes, and with squirrels, rabbits, ducks, geese, pheasants, after a few hours of wandering around in your game bag on a warm day, it just becomes like gutting them and cleaning them becomes not as fun because the smell is so offensive and horrible, and it just leaves you with a like a negative feeling about it. And I think if you could take uh duck or goose, pheasant, whatever, and it happen when you get some snow on the ground right and you quickly gut it out, clean everything out, packs some snow in there, wipe it all out, clean your heart, liver, gizzard, shove them back in there. It just is clean and nice and beautiful. And it's not like that, just the nastiness of gutten a bird that you should have got it a long time ago. But for what I would do, like the best duck that I've dealt with, then I'm gonna be done talk about you guys, talk about the best duck I've dealt with has been like take a duck, got it, clean it up. I put into brown paper grocery sack. I roll that brown paper grocery sack up, and I stacked those sons of bitches in my fridge like firewood, and I don't mess with him for three or four days. M got it gutted, wrapped in a newsprint or grocery sacks, and a little bit of that wrapping, it's just like it keeps it from drying out because you got that gutting incision, so everything starts to drive from there, and also some people that don't like it, and there's like parasites and the feathers that get all over ship, and so your wife opens it up. It's what in the world. But if you just like rolled up in newsprint, rolled up in a brown paper bag, put it in there for three or four days, and you get it out and you get like a duck, and it winds up being that you could almost pick your scrape and that breast meat away with your thumb. That ship is good. That's all I got to say about it. Didn't in uh in in uh generations passed and help me out. If you guys know this story hanging, Yeah, wouldn't they hang it by the neck? And when when it fell to the ground and you still had the head up in the string or the news that's like a scopier stuff. Man. Yeah, I used to hanging a bunch of my birds in North Dakota. It is always we did it in a garage and it really sorry quick question interruption, gutted or not gooded? I did both? Okay, this is interest thing I want to hear. I honestly can't remember if I thought there was a huge difference between the two gut it and not gut in. But I'd say most of them I did. Yeah, I don't think the ones that we kept um internals in we didn't need those, so yeah, so like the ones that we did gout, we would keep that sort of stuff. But yeah, we um A lot of times we come home from a hunt. Depending on the temperature, our garage could sort of stay insulated and it was the right time of the year if it didn't get too cold below freezing, we would just hang up up in the garage would have, um, well we hang our deer on. We'd just get the straps. I have all of them hanging up there, and it was nice um because I would only come home from work clean like two birds a night, the next night clean another two birds. And I would always write on the package how many days they were aged. And I actually have a lot my easier that I need to take each day out that I am aged it for to tell the difference. We did it with a lot of Canada geese um and some snows. But I've always found that snows are always tender no matter what, especially in the Ross's geese and UM I I couldn't age. The problem is I couldn't tell if aging it really tenderized the meat, or if that goose was just a much younger goose versus an older goose. So it's like you just keep getting these variabilities that you're just like, how do you create the same standardization to test all these things? It's it's really hard. And then the weather changes and I'm like, I can't hang these I got clean them all now or or whatever. But that's my brother who's a statistician. He's in a college just but does a lot of statistical modeling and statistical analysis, and he like a pet peeve of his is people who look and they make assumptions about the constants and they're like, oh, it seems like the pheasants that you kill on a Monday tastes better than the ones you kill on a Wednesday. Because he's like, there's so many variables going on all the time, and people go like, the small mouth bass are only hitting shar troups. Because I tied a chartrouss on and caught a small mouth all of a sudden, it was like okay. But the angle of the sun also changed the barametric pressure also changed. You're both moved, like it's really people hunting fishing. People always want to be like that's it. Yeah, yeah, one day. Yeah. People people want a hard answer me, and it's not easy thing to to answer because you're tired after a hunt. Like it's hard to like get a piece of paper out and say I have X amount of snow goose. This one is all white, this one has a lot of gray in it. I know that one's like and then market how many days It's like that's like serious research going on, and and you don't always And I was working a full time job of North Dakota, and so it was just like all those things at that point in time didn't really click that I should be like documenting because we we had so many birds that I really could have done a really nice study, but I just didn't think about that at the time. Do you ever hanging long enough that fell off? No? But I hung it a loong enough and my dog ate a whole goose, and then we were like, all right, that's enough, I'm gonna hang it. I'm gonna hang a doctor year. I was gonna say, I just I just make actually I have done that before. I have had the body fall off, but I think the neck had already been broken from the string, so I don't think it counts not a true and not a not a true lynching. Yeah, did you gotta keep the temperature really constant or in between? Maybe? I don't know if in medieval times they had the opportunity to do that, unless they had a root seller or something that was fifties or whatever it is. But I made a lot of notes here, so if I have the opportunity back on this podcast, I'm gonna have answers to a lot of these things because I'm gonna, Yeah, I'm a testam this winner foul meal, dear fat um. What the hell is shot gobble? That was in the beginning of our shot gobble was one of turkey, do you do you hunt much? Turkey's uh man? A shot gobble is when a turkey gobbles to a sudden noise that isn't another turkey. So, for whatever reason, when they're amped up in the spring and their gobbling a lot um, they get so keyed up. As Little Primo says, it's just them announcing to the world that is their time of year. They get so keyed up that just any kind of sudden, alarming noise. They'll gobble to it. Thunder the same way, though, gobble to a gobble like like really you think like like a turkey. One turkey gobbles. He's like, no, turkeys like, you're not the man. I'm the man, right, But they get like we're just anything going on. So dogs, barking, thunder, and we have found a running list of things that people have heard turkeys respond to, like sonic booms, um seth throwing a rock at the stop sign, car doors, slamming car horns, going off, dogs, barking, crows calling uh blue Jay's, geese honking, geese honking, a redtail hog on. So shot shock, Oh, it's a shock gobble. It shocks him. I thought it was with a t shot And I was thinking, you know, like but they do shot gobble the shots they shot gobble the shotguns. Damn sure. Well see question answered? Um, can I add one thing? I don't know how close you are here, but I don't know. Go ahead, man, So I decided I'm gonna end on something different. Okay, but you go ahead. Um Oh, I just wanted to add a a a thought onto the gray rabbit story. For um, is this some redemption, some sort of saving. Yeah, well I think we have to have takeaways. This can't just be shooting ship and um. And so if I was to offer anything that I believe to be truth, and when it comes to cooking wild game or not, this is just broadline. Cooking is um is methodology super key, you know. And just as as we spend so much time focused on the gear, the technique, how much how many hours we spent on Google Maps and everything else, pouring over where we're gonna go and what we're gonna go do, and um, if you enjoy a good meal, that chef in that restaurant and the entire team has spent equivalent amount of time researching how to make your meal great. Right, So they're doing the exact same thing you're doing in preparation for hunting, in preparation of a meal. And so though it may sound daunting, you don't need to be a chef. To be a good cook is to focus on methodology, because methodology. You see a bumpy two track road, you know, four we'll drive on. You see more than a twelve in twelve inches of snow, you know, maybe it's drifted it's twenty just now you know chains on, right, those are the things we've learned so with methodology, and maybe we can get here on a later podcast where we can write about it. Is methodology is your snow chains in four wheel drive and you know rain jacket, and it is your tool. To cookery is knowing good methodology. So you get a super tough, tough animal with braising techniques, with proper methodology smoking, you're gonna break that thing down and it will be palatable. So to the gray rabbit. One thing that is less methodology, but it is still a skill. And Danielle said in the very beginning, which is we eat with our eyes right, And so one of the easiest put lipstick on your food. And what I mean by that is put your makeup on like garnishing a dish is one of the most underrated, easy to do things that changes the experience for anybody. So your gray rabbit and and you know you have your you know, hopeful sweetheart or whomever coming over to eat, and you're like, man, this is not looking you know how I want it? Um Fresh herbs, fresh chopped herbs not only add great flavor to it, but um, we are and visually it's like makeup. It's mascara for your food. It's like we when you see chopped parsley, you're chopped herbs on food. It's like, oh, this was like this was done by someone that knows what's up, you know, And so I would just add that in and that um is that methodology is going to become really key for folks that want to get into game cookery and then garnishing just um, a little bit of fresh herbs on there, or you know, crumbled dry bacon, or you know, just adding a little extra something gives it a mask, gives it a top coat. You know. Yeah, I'll agree with you on that. I think these methods are the foundation. And once you figure out those things, then everything everything clicks. You can cook anything because it's the same process over and over, over and over again. Ridge Pounder, do you think that would you rather we call you the Great Rabbit? No? No, no, no, thank you, gr I mean instead of RP. It's not bad. Just don't really know the story, you know what, I'll embrace the story. There's a people out there that have probably been in that same predicament learning experience. Oh yeah, man, I'm I remember in cooking school and I was eighteen. I I I served a pasta dish with a sauce called arabiata. It's like a spicy tomato sauce. You know in restaurants you'll see penabiata a lot, and um, so I was making. She just was like, we've been dating for a month, and I was made. I was in culinary school as eighteen years old, and I'm like trying to pull out all these tricks. But I made a penny rbiata and she found a goddamn nipple in her human nipple. No, no, but a nipple nonetheless, And there I am, you know, And yet when you you know, that was like, oh, well, that's because we just learned how to cure bacon in charcutie class. And I had a slab of bacon like billy belly, and we hadn't trimmed the skin off. You garnished it with nipples. I cut the slab and rendered it to make the sauce. And yet there happened to be this whole nipple that made it. In nipple that got in there the rogue. That's that's good, that's a good, that's a name for a book. Right there, the road Nipple a culinary tale. Yeah, there you go, the road nipple. Uh, Danielle, can you real quick zapp everyone? I'm gonna let you take your pick. I want you to zap everyone with um Man, how come no one notified me that I'm not running the right angle? I'm my mic Can you zapp everyone real quick with either this is chef's choice, with either the Heart Rap Spy or the Roadhouse snow Goose steakhouse dish. Oh, I want to talk about the snow goose set the stage. Everybody ship talks snow geese all the time. Yeah, so very very common conversation that takes place is, hey, would you do this weekend? We got into some snow geese. I got this great recipe, let me tell you, And they go on and on and on and on, and then they tell you to eat the rocks, throw the throw the meat away, and then I chuckles, use that joke. It's like and then I listened to the whole story every time like it's the first time I've heard it, and laugh and can yourry inside? I laugh because I'm like, I can't believe he's telling me. Well, people do that with me. I try to meet him with the stone coldest, most indifferent face they've ever seen. Really, I can't. I can't do that. I'm like, yeah, that's not quite right. The viewers can't see the face I just tried to make. But no, I don't you look confused? And that one I'm not good. I'm not good at that kind of stuff. Yeah. So, so that conversation happens a lot, and and I get so sick of it, and I get so it's almost like an offense to me in ways to to say how much I love eating snow goose, and they're like, let me tell you how bad it is. I'm like, are you calling me a bad cook? It could be. I mean, my husband's the only one who really eats my food, and he'll eat anything. But so, so to everybody out there who does not like snow goose or that you throw it away or whatever you do with it, let me let me change your mind a little bit. I call it the steakhouse goose. And this is something I do with my sou vied and I cook it for anybody who comes over for dinner. That's usually what I'm cooking is is a snow goose. So I'll take it out of the freezer, let it sit in the fridge for a couple of days or however long tim ready to cook, pad to dry, a little salt, little pepper. Sometimes I'll get crazy with garlic or thyme, and then a little bit of gee in there, which is clarified butter butter that the milk solids have been taken out. It gives it a higher smoke point, which you don't really need it for suvied I just I think gee has a better flavor because I think the difference between gee and clarified butter, I think they toast toasted differently. But anyway, that's besides the point. So and then I put it in my vacuum sealer su vied it and I usually do it about one thirty, which is on the rare side of medium ram so that way, when all of the breast meat is finished comes out of the bag, they're all cooked the same t Yeah, So my roll of thumb is for every half inch thickness meat, you should be souve eating at least for thirty minutes. And that's if it's already sort of like defrosted. Pull it out to room temperature if it's frozen, like add an hour or more to that. Um so every half inch. And then the funny thing about geese when you cook them, they like to sort of condensed and shrink up and they get thicker. So I always add at least another thirty minutes to that. So if that geese is only an inch thick, I'm still going to suviet it for about an hour and a half. Maybe as you cook it it's gonna become an inch and a half. It's about three quarter inch thick, half inch three quarter inch for a snow and so I take it out, pad it dry, either steared in a cast iron or on the grill, because everybody wants to stick cooked a little bit differently. So I always started out like the rare side of medium. Weare is sort of the baseline because that's what I like to eat on. Somebody else wants it longer than I just see it for a little bit longer, and that is hands down, everybody is obsessed with it. I love it. It's like my my steakhouse, goose good. That's it. Thanks pretty simple. It is really simple, skin on, skin off, just the breast meat, we're talking about here. Yeah, this is just the breast meat, no no skin. Have you ever rendered out all your goose fat? I've tried, We I saved. I actually think I still have some. I think I frozen. I don't know if that's it's probably a terrible idea. But sometimes if I get like only two geese and their thigh meats usually like in that pocket between the thigh and the bottom of the breast. But we'll always have like a lot of a lot of fat in there. And so if I'm just cooking dinner that night, I'll just throw it in the pan and let it sort of melt um to brown the food that I'm cooking, and then the fat melts out and you still left with some kind of collagenny is tissue. I'll throw that out in the brown the meat in there. Yeah, you can freeze an and render it. You can like when when you you know, when you got a goose, you reach into that gutt incisions those big fat globs like right in the body. Yea, yeah, you can freeze those. You can get a hunk of it. Y uh Yeah. Final thoughts, I'm gonna say how much we're talking about thought on me, and I was thinking about what I did a bunch of this summer because my house and kitchen were in disarray, and so once a remodel. Yeah, once we had the new deck up, which is like kind of a dark brown board in its south facing so it gets the sun. You thought you made out in the heat direct well in those pinch in those pinch moments, right, because you're like painting and then you're like, oh shit, it's six, you know, and the one kid's melting, melting, and you're like, I need some thought out meat fast. I don't have a sink, so you know, running underwaters out there's no there's nothing. So yeah, I was gonna say that that's one of the great things about like the vac sield like heavy duty. We use Western bags. They're heavy duty enough we're literally anna like run grab it out of the freezer and then like slide it out onto the deck and the sun and like thirty fits later, I run out there and I've got something to work with. Just hold the health department. Yeah, yeah, or Osha during our remodel, that's good as your conclude her nice work than finals concluders. Um, you know, I think on on my end. No, I I'm excited for I mean, we've archery seasons rapping this weekend here in Montana and um and that means rifle and then um bird seasons kind of upon us. Um. So yeah, I'm just excited to be out eating a little bit more. Um, you know, foraging seasons coming to a forging for non animal based things is coming to a pretty quick halt here. It's gonna be hidden under some snow man. Yeah, it's gonzo. Yeah, I'm gonna go out this weekend. And I was thinking about it was like, men, I think the only thing that will be out there worth picking if I see it as rose hips and that's about it. So yeah, um, we found like at the bottom of the scree slides and stuff, we found queen bleats melting out of you know that can survive this time of year. Yeah, snow frozen, right, you still find queen bleats? Yeah? That are fun. Wow, that's one of these that surprised. Like one of the latest things I've picked have been queen bleats. We've even picking frozen queen bleats. They're like they can though, I'll be fine, but they were great. Yeah, butter not. That's like the kind of the the last thing you find of the stuff that like dies, you know, And I do sorry, I do have a clothing real quick. Do you deal with rose hips? What do you like to do with them? Um? You know in the past, why we've worked with it once before. But um, I don't do a ton with them beyond like teas and whatnot. Um, but Chutney's jams there, they sweeten, there's a lot of there's a ton of vitamins seeing anti accidents in there. They're easy to pick and they're not hard to find everywhere. They live everywhere, so there's really no one who can't go find. I just don't like going home empty handed, so I kind of feel like I gotta come home with something. Oh sorry, we gotta bring up the spiny rose hip that we ran into in Washington. Spine less, spine less, all rose all rose hips, the wild rose, the fruit itself. Yeah. You ever see a rose hip where the hip, like the rose hip, the fruit is spiny? No, did you guys come across that on your archery hunt hunting Southeast Washington. Yeah, we puzzled over it. Yeah, I mean, I know there's a lot of different varieties of rose hips out there spiny yeah, huh. Um, So freezing, we're talking about that a bunch of I have a thought on freezing that I can close with is that I do believe that um, freezing is one of the greatest inventions of the modern world when it comes to eating and sustainability for the human race. Is just being able to freeze things is amazing. And um, but I freeze. I try to be real conscious when I'm breaking down an animal. And I know a lot of folks it's it's good, It's it's pretty easy and and and um. It can be a super boon to timing when you need a quick meal is to have your steaks already cut into two per bag. It's you and the missag thought out. UM. I tend to almost always freeze the whole muscles when I can. UM. It's kind of like that protective skin on the tongue. We're talking about. Things happen. Your bags get punctured when the freezer. You know it's in the back and you uncover it in March and there's a little frost burn on it somewhere. And I feel like even to the point where I will freeze hole muscles with silver skin on the whole nine yards because I know that when when it thaws back out, if something's happened to it, I don't want to lose the good stuff inside. So I'll I'll trend it off the damn cook it in March or April or May or whenever it is. So that's just one thing I like to do. Is I like to freeze hold muscles when I can. Yeah, I do like freezing the loin. Yeah, there's always you kind of want to leave that silver skin on there. But then the thing that's in the back of my head is like, man, when I give it to somebody, then I gotta explain it to him and ship and then what if they don't remember to do it, They're gonna have a negative experience. I'm always weighing in my head. I'll sometimes put us if I'll sometimes make a piece really perfect where anyone in the world with thought out and be like, this is ready to cook. This looks beautiful, and I'll put a star on the package or two stars extreme cases, and then I kind of look and be like, oh, that's one that I could give to someone and there's gonna be no Yeah, puzzlement. They're gonna be They're gonna get it, and they're gonna get it right. I want a double started gift from that guy. Sounds nice. Chris Um not much of a concluder, but I would like if we could like engineer some sort of cook off between Eduardo and Danielle. Mostly because not even like the competition side of it, but I just want an excuse to eat really well, that's all it is. I just want to be like a judge just the contests. Who can give me the most food? Yeah, where you film it or whatever you know, but well I think, Well, one of my thoughts is if if I've never hunted snow geese, but I'd love to go on a snow goose hunt. And what I would like to do is, I'll take those legs if you're going to take the breasts, and you got your steak steakhouse recipe, and I'd love to cone fee those legs. The legs are so good because they have a lot of fat on him. We should all plan, we should all plan, we should all just go out for snow geese in spring. I was saying to Ben O'Brien yesterday. I was saying there needs to be a meat eater rendezvous, like a full blown pow wow where everybody descends to just do a full blown Where would you want hunting session? Eating for the spring hunt? You know, nowhere over in your neck old neck of the woods. Yeah, by the Missouri Are they there late? And as eat season? They have that. They have that spring season where you don't even need a plug. He's electronic. They take they take the gloves off man electronic calls no plug. Yeah, it's crazy. My husband built his own homemade electronic color. It didn't work. He didn't just want to buy a Fox Pro or whatever. You know. He does that a lot. He wants to do everything himself plus his heart. So it's like you end up like you could just spend the money and get it, but he loves doing things himself. But yeah, and he because he wanted it like white and all, like the whole like nine yards and like multiple speakers out throughout the thing. It system. Yeah, because whenever it's around sound goose call. Yeah, becaus like in the middle of the day when you're not doing anything, it's nice to have some music out there. Seth concluders. Um, I got a question. I conclude or um back to oregan meat, I've heard oregon or oregon um. I've heard multiple times people say that like freezing oregan meat is no good. Yeah, freezing livers is rough on livers. Freezing it doesn't matter. Yeah, that's that was my question. I want to take the freeze a kidney. Freezing livers just changes the liver, like the same thing that when in the freezer doesn't come out. Got you. I think it's like it's it's like it's kind of like what happens to a fish for a way. Yeah, you cook it that you want up, but it's kind of like to get like waded. No, no, the opposite of bushy. It's like you take it out and it's like, let's off a ship load of that's off a lot of water. You take the slice, you throw it the pan. It kind of deflates, it gets a little right. It's just it's almost like it's not so much you'd say like it's an absolute no no, because it is not an absolute no no, but it's definitely not. It's so you just eat it when you get it that big. My guess is is, uh, is liver um fall into the category of muscle heart does he So I might take my guests would be that it's just the the um. It's a more naturally tender that the that the makeup of that structure is delicate, right, And so when you're freezing it, you are rupturing through expansion the cellular walls of protein and that organ And so when you thought it's it's losing it's natural structure and web, it's a real letdown. Especially dishes. If you're making dishes like like like like liver pats a and and dips and things like that just isn't the same. So if you're messing with the liver, you want to mess with it like you kill a younger dear. Take the liver home, slicing core here in slices. Solk it. People. My mom used to take solk it and lemon like water with a lemon squeezed into it, or even like those juice bottles, little bottles lemon juice. Put lemon juice and water because it's a little bit of sidic and a little bit of it somehow seems to dissolve and pull out more blood. People use. People take liver home and soak it in salted water. People take it home and solk it and water. But it does. You'll pull out and the water becomes like a rose color like it's definitely dissolving and pulling out some of the blood and then cook it. Don't it's just the first thing you should eat. Freeze all the other stuff. That's my concluder. Daniel, you kind of got your concluder. Do you want another concluder? No? I think I'm good. All right, good job everyone. Um, next time we all get together, we need to spend a little bit of time talking about game Hearts. Until then, thank you,